Yes, I understand your frustration when certain scenarios will not likely be relevant to you. But for me, I am precisely the Ray Mears type of person. I study Bushcraft as I plan to live in remote wilderness for some time and sail the sea. Thus I contemplate worst case scenarios as a means to prepare my journey. And I have wrestle with this scenario for some time as it could very well happen on my trip, so I thought I ask my fellow Buddhist in hope to shed some light on this moral dilemma.Fede wrote:
I'm sorry, really I am, but this does irritate me.
These hypothetical scenarios are utterly pointless.
Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
- Hickersonia
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
No, wouldn't that be chaos! No, I'm simply saying I just don't know how I feel about it.Cittasanto wrote:are you going to get a divorce if she does?Hickersonia wrote:I intend to resist the urge to poison them like we did last year. My wife, on the other hand, may choose to do so in spite of my hesitance. I'm not sure how I feel about that either. :-/
Fair enough way to see it.Cittasanto wrote:if she decides to do it, you can raise concerns but if she does it anyway you don't need to feel bad about it, or help in the matter.
Hickersonia
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
http://hickersonia.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of
throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
Thanks for your perspective. Yea, in Samsara there is dukkha, there is no way around it unless we reach enlightenment. I guess before we can reach the noble end, our hands will remain dirty. I don't need to go through disaster to devote my life to helping others. I have always enjoy helping others and contribute to charities when opportunities arise, but I don't have any wealth to give. No desire to acquire it. I prefer to live a simple modest life with little possessions.santa100 wrote:Obviously it's tough to find a perfect solution in this Samsara. In some situation, one's gonna have to pick the lesser of the evils. On a practical standpoint, The first 2 options aren't good: Killing yourself or slowly starve to death: you still commit an act of killing, and you're trading one human life to save a few animal lives. Not only you'd cut off the chance of enlightenment but also what's equally important: the unique potential of a human being to help others. The third option maybe the better one if you do it properly: minimize the suffering of the poor animal by one single decisive blow to its central nervous system. Make a pledge to yourself now that you've owed your life to some creatures, that the moment you're back to the main land, you'll dedicate all your efforts to help many others: contribute your time, effort, and wealth to many charity works to help the sick, the disabled, and the poor..
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
the OP brings up a very good situation that I struggle with as well being a woodsman and a survivalist. I often think about what if I was lost and had to survive off the land or die.
I also think about home break in self defense type of situations, saving your own life or someone elses life and in the process ending up killing an aggressor. A good discussion so far with some great points brought up.
I also think about home break in self defense type of situations, saving your own life or someone elses life and in the process ending up killing an aggressor. A good discussion so far with some great points brought up.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
where are the rats? (looking around)Dugu wrote:In the Noble Eightfold path, we are to abstain from taking of lives. In practice I have tried my best to follow this precept. I have avoided stepping on ants. I would catch spiders in my room and release them without harm. It's not hard to abstain from taking of lives in the comfort of our modern day living. But I was just thinking if I had been in a life and death scenario, would I still be able to keep my precept? So I would like to propose this scenario to my fellow Buddhist and ask what would you do? Let's say you crashed landed on a remote is./land with no edible vegetation except rats and crabs roaming about. And there is no way to survive except to kill these critters for food. Rescue won't come anytime soon. Would you do it or would you allow yourself to starve to death?
show me the crabs!
Who is starving?
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- Cittasanto
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
hom many of the survivalists here know it is easier to get flora than fauna? or which is and isn't edible?
there was a 'famine' in Sweden years ago and there was plenty of food, just no one knew what was edible from the land, so now there is still a program teaching people what is. well that is what my brothers Swedish wife told me!
EDIT - I remember that there is also eating natural death, animals who have died from natural causes or by accident, I have been told and I may of misunderstood, that in Sri Lanka meat from a natural death is actually more expensive? possibly because it is not associated with any black Kamma
there was a 'famine' in Sweden years ago and there was plenty of food, just no one knew what was edible from the land, so now there is still a program teaching people what is. well that is what my brothers Swedish wife told me!
EDIT - I remember that there is also eating natural death, animals who have died from natural causes or by accident, I have been told and I may of misunderstood, that in Sri Lanka meat from a natural death is actually more expensive? possibly because it is not associated with any black Kamma
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
- Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
I guess rat stew would be OK in an emergency. But it's really about doing the least harm we can, isn't it? Like damage limitation?Dugu wrote: Let's say you crashed landed on a remote island with no edible vegetation except rats and crabs roaming about. And there is no way to survive except to kill these critters for food. Rescue won't come anytime soon. Would you do it or would you allow yourself to starve to death?
Spiny
- Fede
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
Ok. well then, fair enough, i can see the relevance, to a certain extent.Dugu wrote: Yes, I understand your frustration when certain scenarios will not likely be relevant to you. But for me, I am precisely the Ray Mears type of person.
But only to a certain extent.
if you study bushcraft and know Ray Mears, (Forget the other guy, he's a celeb-survivor....) you will also know that he has two skills which are invaluable:I study Bushcraft as I plan to live in remote wilderness for some time and sail the sea.
Knowledge, and Preparation.
He never goes out on a walkabout without adequate supplies of what he knows will be essential. Knives, cooking pots, a flint, condoms - seriously. they're excellent water holders.
I recommend you study as much of his literature as you can, and become knowledgeable on flora and fauna.
even some plants we may not consider edible are extremely nutritious.... and if you're going to sea - then fish.
at least it gives the fish an even chance.....
I would still say however, that the chances of you finding yourself on an island where there are only rats and crabs....(and what are the rats living on? They're scavenging opportunists and go where the going is good..... they'd never survive on a barren island....!).... is a pretty far-fetched idea.
That's a pretty pessimistic outlook.... make a mobile 'phone part of your kit and only ever use it as a complete and total emergency. that would be a good survival strategy.Thus I contemplate worst case scenarios as a means to prepare my journey.
The worst-case scenario is that you would do whatever it takes to survive. If plane-crash survivors in the Andes can make it by eating their dead fellow-passengers, i don't see where your problem lies.....
By all means plan for the worst. but don't bank on it happening.
And We're telling you - or at least, I am - that it's a singular moral dilemma that only you can answer for yourself, should the situation arise.And I have wrestle with this scenario for some time as it could very well happen on my trip, so I thought I ask my fellow Buddhist in hope to shed some light on this moral dilemma.
and in this day and age, there's no reason why it should.
Very few parts of this globe are remotely and impossibly cut off from possible contact or rescue. And if you choose to go there, you'd deserve everything you got, if you went there with no back-up or without informing anyone of your intentions.... wouldn't you?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
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Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
Based on your question, it is pretty obvious you
are willing to kill for your own survival.
You havent reached the stage where you
are able to stop killing altogether.
An arahant would never kill, period.
So, if you continue with your practice, maybe some
day, you wont need to ask these hypothetical questions
anymore.
are willing to kill for your own survival.
You havent reached the stage where you
are able to stop killing altogether.
An arahant would never kill, period.
So, if you continue with your practice, maybe some
day, you wont need to ask these hypothetical questions
anymore.
Dugu wrote:In the Noble Eightfold path, we are to abstain from taking of lives. In practice I have tried my best to follow this precept. I have avoided stepping on ants. I would catch spiders in my room and release them without harm. It's not hard to abstain from taking of lives in the comfort of our modern day living. But I was just thinking if I had been in a life and death scenario, would I still be able to keep my precept? So I would like to propose this scenario to my fellow Buddhist and ask what would you do? Let's say you crashed landed on a remote island with no edible vegetation except rats and crabs roaming about. And there is no way to survive except to kill these critters for food. Rescue won't come anytime soon. Would you do it or would you allow yourself to starve to death?
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
What about the one where you are a transplant surgeon and just happen to be working as a doctor in a small town (maybe an island) with no other medical help. 4 people come in and each has one different organ which is failing and they need a transplant within 2 days or they will die. Then a healthy person walks in for an annual check up. He happens to have the same blood type as the other 4 and his organs and in great shape! What do you do?????????Fede wrote: I'm sorry, really I am, but this does irritate me.
These hypothetical scenarios are utterly pointless.
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
What is the point of these hypothetical questions?
My answer is that they are a very common way in which some educated people conceive of ethics and test out various scenarios to do with morals. The British philosopher Philippa Foot and what became known as "Trolleyology" is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some people are irritated by this type of approach, but then again many people who have been educated in a particular way have this type of mind-set. They value rules and consistency and the ability to deal with counter-factuals. I don't aspire to this type of ability, but I can see its beauty and utility, and it seems to me to be every bit as useful in itself as the ability to cultivate certain types of faith, for example.
My answer is that they are a very common way in which some educated people conceive of ethics and test out various scenarios to do with morals. The British philosopher Philippa Foot and what became known as "Trolleyology" is a good example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some people are irritated by this type of approach, but then again many people who have been educated in a particular way have this type of mind-set. They value rules and consistency and the ability to deal with counter-factuals. I don't aspire to this type of ability, but I can see its beauty and utility, and it seems to me to be every bit as useful in itself as the ability to cultivate certain types of faith, for example.
- Fede
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
oh good grief....*slaps head*...Bankei wrote:What about the one where you are a transplant surgeon and just happen to be working as a doctor in a small town (maybe an island) with no other medical help. 4 people come in and each has one different organ which is failing and they need a transplant within 2 days or they will die. Then a healthy person walks in for an annual check up. He happens to have the same blood type as the other 4 and his organs and in great shape! What do you do?????????Fede wrote: I'm sorry, really I am, but this does irritate me.
These hypothetical scenarios are utterly pointless.
OK. I'll bite....
I give him his check-up and send him on his way.
It's not my job as a surgeon to be a moral compass, and coerce someone into sacrificing their lives for someone else's benefit. That would be unethical.
Neither am I a murderer.
And who's to say they deserve it?
They could be rapists, murderers, alcoholics or wife-beaters....
Jeesh! No-brainer....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
Haha, Fede your answer made me laugh.
... I am somewhat uncomfortable with knowing that it's possible I might go see a transplant doctor for a checkup who'd feel tempted to carve me up to save the other 4 people on the table
... I am somewhat uncomfortable with knowing that it's possible I might go see a transplant doctor for a checkup who'd feel tempted to carve me up to save the other 4 people on the table
- LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Can killing be acceptable in Buddhism?
To kill another animal in order to survive would be done out of clinging to your own life. Instead, why not sit down and meditate on your hunger while realizing the impermanence of living? You could become enlightened right then and there on that island if you confronted your fear and desire instead of breaking a precept in order to stave it off. The bhikkhu Godhika slit his own throat while meditating in order to achieve Nibbana. I think there are far more important things in Buddhism than just keeping yourself alive, even if you aren't enlightened. To place compassion towards a rat over your grasping to your own body would move you ten thousand times further towards dispassion and the mind of an Arahant than giving in to killing in order to escape and go on living.
With that said, I would never imagine criticizing someone who killed an animal in this situation; to not do so would take incredible spiritual development. I'm certain that if I was in that situation, I could not get a rat into my belly fast enough. But that's because of my own clinging and grasping and I'm sure it's not what a Buddha would do.
With that said, I would never imagine criticizing someone who killed an animal in this situation; to not do so would take incredible spiritual development. I'm certain that if I was in that situation, I could not get a rat into my belly fast enough. But that's because of my own clinging and grasping and I'm sure it's not what a Buddha would do.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.
Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.
His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta
Stuff I write about things.