On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:
danieLion wrote:
robertk wrote:Citing the relevant suttas is unlikely to be persuasive to those who have fallen for Thanissaro's mystical drivel....
What do you mean by "mystical"?
good-will
Daniel
It was from ven. Dhammanando .
I think what he meant by "MYSTCAL DRIVEL"(and although I have met the ven. several times, we never discussed Thanissara) was that the ven. Thanissaro's writings on nibbana, anatta, self strategy, the consciousness without whateer.. etc are all eel wiggling ideas based on his deep belief in an eternal self that resides somewhere free of the 5 khandas.
But i could be wrong.
In light of Thanissaro's public record, the idea that he would believe "in an internal self that resides somewhere free of the 5 khandas" is completely ABSURD!!! And how is it not gossip and idle chatter? I suspect Ven. Dhammanando, or whoever the source claim derives from, is confused.
And why call it mystical drivel? Thanissaro's PUBLIC RECORD is clearly anti-mysticism (where mysticism is the process of becoming one with God).
One extreme would be Thanissaro says one thing in public and another in private. Another extreme would be Ven. Dhammanando is slandering Thanissaro. I hope the truth is not in the extremities.
good-will
Daniel
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Alex123
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Alex123 »

daverupa wrote:
Zom wrote:Btw, Right / Wrong ditthis have nothing to do with conventional "self". They deal with ultimate-reality self.
Anattā deals with the Self of the Upaniṣads (attā, Skt. ātman), not with the individual (puggala). There's no need to tangle with this "ultimate" baggage.

You are right in the regard that Buddha denied metaphysical Upaniṣadic idea of ātman. But Buddha never denied the existence of conventional, ordinary self

  • “So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer (attakāro), there is no other-doer’?” http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And
  • 160. One (Attā) truly is the protector of oneself (attano); who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain.
    161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem.
    165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Buddha did teach about: Attanā, attajaṃ, attasambhavaṃ and puggalo.
  • "And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Attā which Buddha denied was the metaphysical Attā that is nicca and sukha.
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cooran
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by cooran »

It was from ven. Dhammanando .
I think what he meant by "MYSTCAL DRIVEL"(and although I have met the ven. several times, we never discussed Thanissara) was that the ven. Thanissaro's writings on nibbana, anatta, self strategy, the consciousness without whateer.. etc are all eel wiggling ideas based on his deep belief in an eternal self that resides somewhere free of the 5 khandas.
But i could be wrong.
In light of Thanissaro's public record, the idea that he would believe "in an internal self that resides somewhere free of the 5 khandas" is completely ABSURD!!! And how is it not gossip and idle chatter? I suspect Ven. Dhammanando, or whoever the source claim derives from, is confused.
And why call it mystical drivel? Thanissaro's PUBLIC RECORD is clearly anti-mysticism (where mysticism is the process of becoming one with God).
One extreme would be Thanissaro says one thing in public and another in private. Another extreme would be Ven. Dhammanando is slandering Thanissaro. I hope the truth is not in the extremities.
good-will
Daniel
Hello Daniel,

Dhammanando Bhikkhu is well-known to many on this board and is a founding member.

He is held in deep respect for his scholarly knowledge and for his committed and deep practice.

We look forward to his posts on this board whenever he emerges from his practice in the forests of Thailand and is able to be in internet contact.

I personally would take his understanding and knowledge over and above that of Thanissaro’s anytime.

Bhante Dhammanando studied at University of Iceland. He lives in Phrao, Chiang Mai, Thailand. He knows Icelandic, Pali, English, and the S'gaw Karen language

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 1&p=66#p66" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cooran wrote:I personally would take his understanding and knowledge over and above that of Thanissaro’s anytime.
On matters relating to the official Mahavihara interpretation of the Dhamma, perhaps.

As to what Thanissaro Bhikkhu believes, on the other hand, I suspect Thanissaro Bhikkhu knows this better than Dhammanando Bhikkhu.

Unless perhaps venerable Dhammanando has, unbeknownst to us, developed the ability to penetrate the minds of others!

:spy:

:D

I'm not a fan of putting words into the mouths of others, so if Thanissaro Bhikkhu doesn't state he believes in some kind of atman, independent of the aggregates, I see no reason to thrust that accusation upon him. People falsely accused the Buddha of being an annihilationist too - che sera sera. I find Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teaching very appropriate, compatible with the suttas, and if they leave people dissatisfied or uncomfortable because he doesn't proclaim from the mountaintop that "THERE IS NO ATMAN" at the top of his lungs (note: neither did the Buddha), well, that's for other people to deal with. People are welcome to opt for whatever interpretations accord with their beliefs, studies and experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
danieLion
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by danieLion »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
cooran wrote:I personally would take his understanding and knowledge over and above that of Thanissaro’s anytime.
On matters relating to the official Mahavihara interpretation of the Dhamma, perhaps.

As to what Thanissaro Bhikkhu believes, on the other hand, I suspect Thanissaro Bhikkhu knows this better than Dhammanando Bhikkhu.

Unless perhaps venerable Dhammanando has, unbeknownst to us, developed the ability to penetrate the minds of others!

:spy:

:D

I'm not a fan of putting words into the mouths of others, so if Thanissaro Bhikkhu doesn't state he believes in some kind of atman, independent of the aggregates, I see no reason to thrust that accusation upon him. People falsely accused the Buddha of being an annihilationist too - che sera sera. I find Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teaching very appropriate, compatible with the suttas, and if they leave people dissatisfied or uncomfortable because he doesn't proclaim from the mountaintop that "THERE IS NO ATMAN" at the top of his lungs (note: neither did the Buddha), well, that's for other people to deal with. People are welcome to opt for whatever interpretations accord with their beliefs, studies and experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,
Thank you for saying it a calm way. I got carried away.
good-will
Daniel
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Buckwheat »

Retro,
Good post.

Metta,
Scott
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Ariya Suriya
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Ariya Suriya »

Some people are scared at the fact that in parinibbana there is no conciousness... ;)
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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Cittasanto »

Ariya Suriya wrote:Some people are scared at the fact that in parinibbana there is no conciousness... ;)
proof please
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Ariya Suriya
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Ariya Suriya »

You want proof that in parinibbana there is no conciusness or proof that some people are scared at this fact? or proof of both?
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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Cittasanto »

Ariya Suriya wrote:You want proof that in parinibbana there is no conciusness or proof that some people are scared at this fact? or proof of both?
that in parinibbana there is no consciousness.

this seams very close to things the Buddha put aside, and I have not seen such a statement within the canon to my memory.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Ariya Suriya
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Ariya Suriya »

W E W I L L N E V E R A G A I N LIE I N T H E W O M B ; )

But don't worry, the trick of parinibbana is that it can be enjoyed without conciousness, as a matter of fact, the five khandas are stressful for the arahant, so parinibbana is final release from these final burdens (the five khandas).

Anyway, I am pointing this out because apparently some famous teachers can't make peace with this fact, they just can't understand how extintion can be liberation if there is no conciousness and try to make nibbana fit into their interpretations. They are teaching BS in the name of the Buddha and misleading people on basic dhamma.

All the best,
Ariya Suriya
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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Cittasanto »

Ariya Suriya wrote:W E W I L L N E V E R A G A I N LIE I N T H E W O M B ; )

But don't worry, the trick of parinibbana is that it can be enjoyed without conciousness, as a matter of fact, the five khandas are stressful for the arahant, so parinibbana is final release from these final burdens (the five khandas).

Anyway, I am pointing this out because apparently some famous teachers can't make peace with this fact, they just can't understand how extintion can be liberation if there is no conciousness and try to make nibbana fit into their interpretations. They are teaching BS in the name of the Buddha and misleading people on basic dhamma.

All the best,
Ariya Suriya
still no support then!
The Arahant has put down the burden, there is no more Dukkha, sure there will still be physical stresses and strains but these are not stressful as that would be a second dart, and extinction refers to fire, the fires of Greed Hatred & Delusion, and never again to lie in the womb refers to not being reborn.

Whether and how an Arahant exists after physical death is something put aside by the Buddha, and unless you can clearly show evidence the Buddha talked about not having any consciousness after the physical death then you are just adding to what is there.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Ariya Suriya
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Ariya Suriya »

Yes... you are right...
But you yourself stated it, the arahant is not reborn after death... so after death he doesn't experience the five khandas, form, sensation, perception, determination and conciousness... The Buddha put aside the definition of the arahant after death as existence, non existence, both or neither, because such terms are improper to define the state of the Buddha after his passing away; which does not mean that the agreggate of viññana persists after death... for the one who is not reborn the five khandas are destroyed, as happens with any fabrication. Just got the feeling that many people can't deal with the idea of utter extintion... they want something to remain... of course, nibbana remains, which is supreme and IS something, but... the way I see it, there is no such a thing as conciousness in parinibbana...

All the best =)
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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Cittasanto »

Cittasanto wrote:
Ariya Suriya wrote:Yes... you are right...
But you yourself stated it, the arahant is not reborn after death... so after death he doesn't experience the five khandas, form, sensation, perception, determination and conciousness... The Buddha put aside the definition of the arahant after death as existence, non existence, both or neither, because such terms are improper to define the state of the Buddha after his passing away; which does not mean that the agreggate of viññana persists after death... for the one who is not reborn the five khandas are destroyed, as happens with any fabrication. Just got the feeling that many people can't deal with the idea of utter extintion... they want something to remain... of course, nibbana remains, which is supreme and IS something, but... the way I see it, there is no such a thing as conciousness in parinibbana...

All the best =)
What I said regarding rebirth is "never again to lie in the womb refers to not being reborn." i.e. the cycle of Dependent Arising no longer happens, not that aspects will or wont remain, no-one knows and you havn't shown otherwise.

stop adding to what is there you and no one else knows authoritatively unless they are an Arahant with the appropriate knowledges.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: On Thanissaro Bhikkhu's anatta teachings

Post by Cittasanto »

Also where is your evidence that Thanissaro teaches your earlier claim about consciousness existing after death?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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