Recent retreat experience

[mikenz66]

Greetings Mike,

Have you got some ideas on how you're going to put this advice into practice?

A very simplistic example: when typing, for example, one isn't going to be able to follow "raising finger, lowering finger, pressing key...". But one can see whether what one is trying to do is causing agitation, will lead to good outcomes, etc.

It's interesting, because that type of contemplation/reflection you provide in your example potentially falls under the scope of cittanupassana and dhammanupassana, so even though it won't involve any of the techniques you apply under retreat conditions, it can still be satipatthana-bhavana.

Sure. That's what I meant. The wisdom part is the same, but not necessarily the specific techniques.


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

Sweet. Yoniso manasikara is cool.

Metta,
Retro.

[mikenz66]

I mentioned these issues at a meeting of a small insight group last week and unhesitatingly the oldest person there (recently retired) said: "Meditation on death is pretty effective motivation."

Complacency is probably a closer word to what your teacher was trying to convey than laziness, we don't pay attention to what we don't value.

Sure, complacency is a good description of the problem. However I tend to think of laziness as the result of complacency. And in terms of action (or not...) "lazy" is the opposite to "effort", which is what needs to be applied.


Mike

[mikenz66]

Greetings Mike,

Sweet. Yoniso manasikara is cool.

Metta,
Retro.

You mean pay attention wisely? Yes.

[Personally I don't use Pali in a practice context. For me it requires a lot of effort to translate. I actually spend a lot of time looking up Pali terms when reading this board... ]


Mike

[mikenz66]

Hi Chris,

Sounds like a productive retreat. A little on the corruptions of insight by Mahasi Sayadaw:

The Progress of Insight (Visuddhiñana-katha) by The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw translated from the Pali with Notes by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, also, perhaps more readably at: http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't like to assume I'm really at any particular stage, but I think the following is worth keeping in mind no matter where one is:
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... .html#Path" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

V. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of What is Path and Not-path

While engaged in noticing, the meditator either by himself or through instructions from someone else, comes to this decision: "The brilliant light, and the other things experienced by me, are not the path. Delight in them is merely a corruption of insight. The practice of continuously noticing the object as it becomes evident — that alone is the way of insight. I must go on with just the work of noticing." This decision is called purification by knowledge and vision of what is path and not-path.

Some years ago, I found that there is nothing like working in the Emergency Dept. of a large metro hospital and being confronted daily with all aspects of dead bodies, dying people, and grieving rellies. It certainly brings about an 'urgency' in ones practice.

Indeed it must!


Mike

[Goofaholix]

Sure, complacency is a good description of the problem. However I tend to think of laziness as the result of complacency. And in terms of action (or not...) "lazy" is the opposite to "effort", which is what needs to be applied.

If you were truly lazy you'd be at home with your feet up watching coronation street.

I don't think anyone who can do mahasi style practice 10+ hours sitting and walking over several weeks or days could really be considered lazy, however despite that level of effort being applied in a sustained way I've found myself that I can get complacent.

It's not a lack of effort, I can put forth quite sustained effort on retreat, it's the forgetting that each and every moment is precious and worthy of renewed attention.

So it's not so much the effort it's how we're applying the effort that is important I think, wrong effort can be just as unconducive as no effort.

[mikenz66]

Hi Goofaholix, You make some very good points here.

If you were truly lazy you'd be at home with your feet up watching coronation street.

I don't think anyone who can do mahasi style practice 10+ hours sitting and walking over several weeks or days could really be considered lazy, however despite that level of effort being applied in a sustained way I've found myself that I can get complacent.

I guess you're right. I did think you were just being picky about the English terminology (and as you know, being picky about English tends to be a bit pointless in a Thai context where sometimes you're lucky to get any at all...)

So what you say here is quite correct:

It's not a lack of effort, I can put forth quite sustained effort on retreat, it's the forgetting that each and every moment is precious and worthy of renewed attention.

And, I might add, in my case the choice to apply just sufficient effort in a way that gives enough concentration to be reasonably comfortable, i.e. the wrong effort of your next sentence:

So it's not so much the effort it's how we're applying the effort that is important I think, wrong effort can be just as unconducive as no effort.

Thank you very much for your really helpful comments!


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

Sounds like it was a productive retreat then.



Metta,
Retro.

[amtross]

When I was hiking the appelachian trail (from GA to ME), there was a saying: "Never stop at a shelter while its raining if you want to go any further that day". When you're hiking in the rain, it usually isn't that bad but once you get in a comfortable spot it's almost impossible to talk yourself into going back out into the rain. I think the practice can be like this...

[mikenz66]

Beautiful simile Amtross...


Mike

[carlosm]

Thanks mikenz66 for this post, really gave me a lot to think about. I also suffer a bit form complacence, and I'm just at the beginning of the practice, I spend a lot of time in calm states instead in put effort in going forward in the path.

[DNS]

I agree with the other posters; that it sounds like a productive retreat. I am sure we all have to go through many a retreat like that to get closer to our goal(s).

"The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step." Chinese proverb

The blind sea turtle similie

[mikenz66]

Thanks all. I've learned to accept over the years that just learning one little thing from a retreat is progress...


Mike