Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
namaste
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by namaste »

Tibetans and Zen both have married "monks", but only in certain sects.
An ex-monk in the Tibetan tradition told me that Tibetan monks have the right to disrobe 3 times in their "career", assuming no vows have been broken. If they're chafing under the celibacy discipline, they can disrobe to "let off steam" for a year, then take their robes back.

Is there a similar allowance in Theravada--to give back intact vows for a period? Are monks allowed to take a break at some point? It sounds strange, but you never know about details like this until you ask.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Goofaholix »

namaste wrote:Is there a similar allowance in Theravada--to give back intact vows for a period? Are monks allowed to take a break at some point? It sounds strange, but you never know about details like this until you ask.
I understand that Thervadin monks can disrobe and re-robe many times, but in Thailand for example it's considered bad luck if it's done more than 3 times.

It's not like taking a break though, one would lose ones seniority, so the most senior teacher would become the most junior monk again.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

the number of times one can ordain is 7, although I have heard that this is not correct by a former monk.

but there is no Vinaya line in Japan.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

Cittasanto wrote:
Bankei wrote:
hermitwin wrote:What if the monk goes to another country or another tradition?
Why cant the monk be forgiven if he has repented?
I think the 4 parajika rules are the same in all extant vinaya traditions. So if one were to break a parajika rule in one tradition then one could become a monk (legally anyway) in another tradition.
this is not necessarily true Bankei, and has already been commented on.

How different traditions are viewed changes with the person, some consider them the same, as with the case of your post regarding Ajahn Sumedho ordaining Bhikshus/nis would show, others would consider them different traditions and would require probationary periods, yet others may require them to ordain within their tradition.

Unless a Venerable of a different school or another fully or ex-ordained member chooses to comment upon this (someone who may have knowledge of how the different schools views it) it is speculation and not relevant unless you can support your claim.
Apologies. It seems I left out the word not.

I meant to have written:
So if one were to break a parajika rule in one tradition then one could not become a monk (legally anyway) in another tradition.

Sorry for the confusion.

Also, I was thinking, the 4 parajika rules are probably mostly the same in each tradition - but there may be slight differences between them.

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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Bankei,
they are essentially the same except wording!
I double checked with a contact of mine yesterday, but I do remember seeing a booklet made by a by a former monk ordained in the Dharmagupta tradition then within the Theravadin tradition, and the order is slightly different between the two, but the Theravadin Patimokkha seams to have all the rules they have, and I would hazard a guess that it would be the same between others also, but there maybe rules missing here and there in the other groups of rules.

sometimes the major change is in distance or length or amount, such as in the rules requiring forfiture and confession/confession.

the monk who wrote the booklet made it for free distribution and is living in malasia if I remember, so it maybe available online, his work has become quite popular/he is quite a prolific author, but his name excapes me at the moment, another booklet of his (I think) is only we can help ourselves if someone wants to check, I will try later.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

http://www.vbgnet.org/download-tracking ... g%29%2Ezip

it is quite a big file so can not load it to download, and it is a scan, but I do know it is a free distribution book so no violation of precept or other.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Ytrog »

I wonder: what chance does a monk have to be successful in the Dhamma after he has disrobed because of committing a Pārājika offense and re-ordaining. I would say it's almost none after such a defeat. You have proven to yourself to be incapable of keeping the most major rules after that, so what is the point in trying to re-ordain in whatever tradition even if it is allowed? :shrug:
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Ytrog wrote:I wonder: what chance does a monk have to be successful in the Dhamma after he has disrobed because of committing a Pārājika offense and re-ordaining. I would say it's almost none after such a defeat. You have proven to yourself to be incapable of keeping the most major rules after that, so what is the point in trying to re-ordain in whatever tradition even if it is allowed? :shrug:
well put it this way the first parajika has lengthy instruction on how to disrobe! it is better to disrobe then commit preform the act than to preform the act, as you die in the sangha (it isn't exactly disrobal), but if you disrobe first due to a weakness, then preform the act it isn't the same (BTW I am thinking of a specific sensual act in this regard, not murder).

being weak is one thing, recognising that weakness is another, and doing it anyway is something else. there are cases in thailand where groups trying to undermine Buddhism for whatever reason have gotten monks in situations and some have stayed strong others have disrobed due to weakness, others have tried to disrobe but not done it propperly so parajika, and yet others have done it anyway so parajika.

but just because someone commits a parajika does not mean they are not capable of practising, I do believe they go to hell according to the canon, but they can still practice create punna and hopefully be born into a life where the dhamma can be understood and practised fully.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Sylvester »

The Pali Vinaya is the only Vinaya that does not contain a rehab allowance for Parajika monastics. All the other known Vinayas have this allowance. I can't recall the spelling now, but it sounds vaguely like "siksadattaka" (will have to download that article from my other PC for the correct name).

I think the redactors of the Pali Vinaya were quite aware of the "siksadattaka" developing in the other traditions.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

You might wish to view the research by Dr Shayne Clarke of McMaster university. See his home page for more details.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Bankei wrote:You might wish to view the research by Dr Shayne Clarke of McMaster university. See his home page for more details.
I have tried to look for this Dr but don't know which site?? can you share a link
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Sylvester wrote:The Pali Vinaya is the only Vinaya that does not contain a rehab allowance for Parajika monastics. All the other known Vinayas have this allowance. I can't recall the spelling now, but it sounds vaguely like "siksadattaka" (will have to download that article from my other PC for the correct name).

I think the redactors of the Pali Vinaya were quite aware of the "siksadattaka" developing in the other traditions.
there are rehabilitation rules within the pali Vinayapitaka but these are the sanghadisesa rules and there is no evidence I know of for rehabilitation of the parajika rules within the pali canon.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Bankei
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

Cittasanto wrote:
Bankei wrote:You might wish to view the research by Dr Shayne Clarke of McMaster university. See his home page for more details.
I have tried to look for this Dr but don't know which site?? can you share a link
Yes.
http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/clarsha/publications.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look at the third article in particular.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Sylvester »

Cittasanto wrote:
Sylvester wrote:The Pali Vinaya is the only Vinaya that does not contain a rehab allowance for Parajika monastics. All the other known Vinayas have this allowance. I can't recall the spelling now, but it sounds vaguely like "siksadattaka" (will have to download that article from my other PC for the correct name).

I think the redactors of the Pali Vinaya were quite aware of the "siksadattaka" developing in the other traditions.
there are rehabilitation rules within the pali Vinayapitaka but these are the sanghadisesa rules and there is no evidence I know of for rehabilitation of the parajika rules within the pali canon.

That is true.

As mentioned, I think the redactors of the Pali Vinaya were aware of this allowance. They may have left a clue of this in one of the origin stories to the 1st Parajika (the one immediately following the she-monkey episode).

There, it is said that the Buddha explicitly denied the possibility of a repeal of the Parajika rule.

Whether this was truly in response to the failings of some Vajjian monks, or was inserted subsequently as a reaction to the development of the siksadattaka, is anyone's guess.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Bankei wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Bankei wrote:You might wish to view the research by Dr Shayne Clarke of McMaster university. See his home page for more details.
I have tried to look for this Dr but don't know which site?? can you share a link
Yes.
http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/clarsha/publications.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Look at the third article in particular.
Thanks, couldn't find this page
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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