Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
hermitwin
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Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by hermitwin »

When a monk has broken major rules, he is forced to disrobe.
Can he become a monk again?
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Cittasanto
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

hermitwin wrote:When a monk has broken major rules, he is forced to disrobe.
Can he become a monk again?
if a bhikkhu breaks a parajika rule they can not ordain again in this life.

[edit - some off the similies used to describe breaking the four parajika rules]
as though a rock broken in two can not be whole again, a leaf fallen from a tree can not be reattached, a man with his head cut off can no live...

no coming back from it
Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bankei
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

Also, I think a parajika monk can ordain as a novice - according to vinaya.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Bankei wrote:Also, I think a parajika monk can ordain as a novice - according to vinaya.
that is a gray area, and not everywhere does, or accepts it as valid. but some places do, however, it may cause problems if they go to where this isn't.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

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hermitwin
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by hermitwin »

What if the monk goes to another country or another tradition?
Why cant the monk be forgiven if he has repented?
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

hermitwin wrote:What if the monk goes to another country or another tradition?
Why cant the monk be forgiven if he has repented?
how the other tradition (i.e. another vinaya lineage found in Tibet or within the Chinese line of ordination) may or may not view them as not being able to ordain, but it would depend on the tradition and if they are a vinaya line or not. but I do know some Bhikkhus would not consider it possible if it was a parajika from another vinaya line.

if it was another religion or non-vinaya school then it shouldn't be a problem.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

In the Tibetan tradition I know of a bhikshu who broke the celibacy rule (that is a parajika one I think) & had a child. Several years later (5 or 7 or?? I forgot) he was allowed to become a bhikshu again. Whether that was because the Tibetan tradition permits it or there was a special dispensation given by the Dalai Lama, for example, I do not know.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hermitwin
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by hermitwin »

Thanks for the all the comments.
What is the rationale for this rule?
Is it purely to discourage monks from breaking the rules?
Bankei
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

Will wrote:In the Tibetan tradition I know of a bhikshu who broke the celibacy rule (that is a parajika one I think) & had a child. Several years later (5 or 7 or?? I forgot) he was allowed to become a bhikshu again. Whether that was because the Tibetan tradition permits it or there was a special dispensation given by the Dalai Lama, for example, I do not know.
Will,

I have often wondered what the go is with the Tibetans. It seems there are many married 'monks' but maybe these are not Bhikshu but lamas - what is the difference?
There is also the tantric side.

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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by tiltbillings »

Bankei wrote:
Will wrote:In the Tibetan tradition I know of a bhikshu who broke the celibacy rule (that is a parajika one I think) & had a child. Several years later (5 or 7 or?? I forgot) he was allowed to become a bhikshu again. Whether that was because the Tibetan tradition permits it or there was a special dispensation given by the Dalai Lama, for example, I do not know.
Will,

I have often wondered what the go is with the Tibetans. It seems there are many married 'monks' but maybe these are not Bhikshu but lamas - what is the difference?
There is also the tantric side.

Bankei
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Will wrote:In the Tibetan tradition I know of a bhikshu who broke the celibacy rule (that is a parajika one I think) & had a child. Several years later (5 or 7 or?? I forgot) he was allowed to become a bhikshu again. Whether that was because the Tibetan tradition permits it or there was a special dispensation given by the Dalai Lama, for example, I do not know.
He wouldn't be a Bhikshu!

the rule is not able to be overridden in any tradition, but whether one tradition would or could accept someone who comitted a parajika from another tradition or not is not exactly the same, see my above post on this.

not all those in the Mahayana tradition as a whole are Bhikshus/Bhikshunis as there are other forms of ordination within the Mahayana tradition, such as in Zen there is no Vinaya line, in Korea there is both a vinaya and non-vinaya line, and the same is in tibet and other countries/traditions.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Cittasanto
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

hermitwin wrote:Thanks for the all the comments.
What is the rationale for this rule?
Is it purely to discourage monks from breaking the rules?
these are what should never be done as they go against the motives for being a mendicant & meditator following the Buddhas teaching.
the four rules which constitute the Parajika group (for Bhikkhus; 8 for Bhikkhunis) although not all of them are wrong in and of themselves; such as theft is a worldly wrong but may have reasons which seam reasonable to preform, but it goes against being relyant upon lay people for food and support, whereas sex is a spiritual wrong because it can be misused and is a gross form of clinging - claiming attainments one does not see one having is wrong because it also undermines trust in recieving support by being a pure practitioner, but murder is regardless.

doing any of these is not the same as disrobing, as it is instant, no motive to disrobe need be involved.

however there are excemptions to these rules but that doesn't mean it is possible to do them. see Buddhist monastic code volume 1.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Bankei »

hermitwin wrote:What if the monk goes to another country or another tradition?
Why cant the monk be forgiven if he has repented?
I think the 4 parajika rules are the same in all extant vinaya traditions. So if one were to break a parajika rule in one tradition then one could become a monk (legally anyway) in another tradition.
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Re: Can a monk who disrobe reordain?

Post by Cittasanto »

Bankei wrote:
hermitwin wrote:What if the monk goes to another country or another tradition?
Why cant the monk be forgiven if he has repented?
I think the 4 parajika rules are the same in all extant vinaya traditions. So if one were to break a parajika rule in one tradition then one could become a monk (legally anyway) in another tradition.
this is not necessarily true Bankei, and has already been commented on.

How different traditions are viewed changes with the person, some consider them the same, as with the case of your post regarding Ajahn Sumedho ordaining Bhikshus/nis would show, others would consider them different traditions and would require probationary periods, yet others may require them to ordain within their tradition.

Unless a Venerable of a different school or another fully or ex-ordained member chooses to comment upon this (someone who may have knowledge of how the different schools views it) it is speculation and not relevant unless you can support your claim.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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