Samatha: supression and cultivation

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Ben
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Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Ben »

Greetings all,

When we develop samatha we do this by"supressing" the hindrances. This description of "supression" is in both ancient and modern literature. What is meant by supression? Do we enter Jhana as a result of actively suppressing the hindrances or does supression occur passively as a result of developing concentration?

Similarly we read samatha is developing by cultivation of the jhana factors. Are the jhana factors actively developed or do they develop naturally as a result of maintaining unbroken attention on the meditation object?

I am interested in ideas that are supported whether its by suttanta, abhidhamma, ancient commentarial literature and the works of later scholars and respected meditation teachers or a combination of sources. While I am very happy to hear of ideas informed by meditative experience for the sake of this discussion they should be balanced by textual support as well.
I am interested in containing the discussion to the development of the first jhana.
I don't care for side discussions about who has the most authoritative approach and whose is deficient.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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cooran
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by cooran »

Hello Ben, and all,

A few references as a basis for discussion:

The Five Mental Hindrances, by Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh026-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nīvarana: 'hindrances', are 5 qualities which are obstacles to the mind and blind our mental vision. In the presence of them we cannot reach neighbourhood-concentration upacāra-samādhi and full concentration appanā-samādhi, and are unable to discern clearly the truth. They are:
1. sense-desire kāmacchanda,
2. ill-will vyāpāda,
3. lethargy and Laziness thīna-middha,
4. restlessness and regrets uddhacca-kukkucca and
5. skeptical doubt vicikicchā.
[more .............. ]
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... c3_n.htm#n" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;īvarana

Vikkhambhana-pahāna: 'overcoming by repression' or 'suspension', is one of the 5 kinds of overcoming pahāna.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... mbhana-pah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;āna

with metta
Chris
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Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

Ben wrote:Greetings all,

When we develop samatha we do this by"supressing" the hindrances. This description of "supression" is in both ancient and modern literature. What is meant by supression? Do we enter Jhana as a result of actively suppressing the hindrances or does supression occur passively as a result of developing concentration?

Similarly we read samatha is developing by cultivation of the jhana factors. Are the jhana factors actively developed or do they develop naturally as a result of maintaining unbroken attention on the meditation object?

I am interested in ideas that are supported whether its by suttanta, abhidhamma, ancient commentarial literature and the works of later scholars and respected meditation teachers or a combination of sources. While I am very happy to hear of ideas informed by meditative experience for the sake of this discussion they should be balanced by textual support as well.
I am interested in containing the discussion to the development of the first jhana.
I don't care for side discussions about who has the most authoritative approach and whose is deficient.
kind regards,

Ben
Is it possible for you to cite the instances in which the word 'suppression' regarding the hindrances is used in the sutta texts. I know it is used in other texts, but I have not come across its use within the suttas. 'Abandons' seem's to be the word used (although, no one is suggesting this is a permanent abandonment).

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote: Is it possible for you to cite the instances in which the word 'suppression' regarding the hindrances is used in the sutta texts. I know it is used in other texts, but I have not come across its use within the suttas. 'Abandons' seem's to be the word used (although, no one is suggesting this is a permanent abandonment).
Abandoned suggests a voluntary letting go, as in walking away from a broken down car, which is not quite accurate to the experience of jhana. Suppression, as opposed repression, seems to be accurate to the experience of jhana in regards to the negative stuff, which does, in time, come back, but it is not in the sense of deliberately trying to push this or that down; rather, is is what happens as concentration is cultivated. This seems to be a natural function of a highly collected or unified mind, though, of course, one might try to actively suppress a troublesome negative factor and that might help. The negative factors during and for a time after after the jhana experience are not directly fueled, as it where, and thus they do not readily arise. Accurate words that catch the nuance of this function of jhana are difficult to find. This suppression of negative factors with highly refined meditative concentration can also be a basis for supposing one has attained some degree of awakening.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: Is it possible for you to cite the instances in which the word 'suppression' regarding the hindrances is used in the sutta texts. I know it is used in other texts, but I have not come across its use within the suttas. 'Abandons' seem's to be the word used (although, no one is suggesting this is a permanent abandonment).
Abandoned suggests a voluntary letting go, as in walking away from a broken down car, which is not quite accurate to the experience of jhana.
I can only speak personally, but the word 'abandon' actually fits my own experiences. It also seems to be the english word that has been used in translation. The similes that are given regarding the abandoning of the hindrances also point to a 'releasing' or 'freedom from' rather than suppressing.
"Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and there is extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man falls sick — in pain and seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals, and there is no strength in his body. As time passes, he eventually recovers from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and there is strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am recovered from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and there is strength in my body.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. As time passes, he eventually is released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man is a slave, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. As time passes, he eventually is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"Now suppose that a man, carrying money and goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. As time passes, he eventually emerges from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money and goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe and sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would experience joy and happiness.

"In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote: I can only speak personally, but the word 'abandon' actually fits my own experiences. It also seems to be the english word that has been used in translation. The similes that are given regarding the abandoning of the hindrances also point to a 'releasing' or 'freedom from' rather than suppressing.
But the reality is that one is only "free" from the negative stuff for awhile until there is actual insight, which is what leads to the real abandoning.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: I can only speak personally, but the word 'abandon' actually fits my own experiences. It also seems to be the english word that has been used in translation. The similes that are given regarding the abandoning of the hindrances also point to a 'releasing' or 'freedom from' rather than suppressing.
But the reality is that one is only "free" from the negative stuff for awhile until there is actual insight, which is what leads to the real abandoning.
Although the abandoning is temporary, insights are involved. Even if it is merely the insight that there 'IS' something more. I think that if the above similes are carefully read they help shed light on how the hindrances are to be abandoned and especially what the experience of abandoning them is like.

Metta

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Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

Ben wrote:
Similarly we read samatha is developing by cultivation of the jhana factors. Are the jhana factors actively developed or do they develop naturally as a result of maintaining unbroken attention on the meditation object?
I think its actually a twofold approach. Actively recollecting the downside of the hindrances and the blessings of being free from them and secondly actively recollecting our own accomplishments in and the positiveness/blessing of virtue, generosity, dis-passion etc. Which are the causes for the jhana factors to arise.

Metta

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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Otsom »

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Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

I didn't mean for anything I said to be construed as a forceful/suppressive 'act of will', I meant it to be seen as a recollection - 'a cause'.................
‘Young man, these five things made known by the Brahmins for the accomplishment and accumulation of merit, I declare are the accessories to develop the mind freeing it from ill will and anger. Young man, the bhikkhu becomes truthful. He experiences its meaning knowing I’m truthful, experiences the Teaching and joy, of knowing the Teaching. That joy accompanied with merit, I call the accessory of the mind, to develop the mind freeing it from ill will and anger. The bhikkhu becomes austere, leads a holy life, becomes learned, becomes benevolent He experiences its meaning knowing I’m benevolent, experiences the Teaching and joy, of knowing the Teaching. That joy accompanied with merit, I call the accessory of the mind, to develop the mind freeing it from ill will and anger. Young man, these five things made known by the Brahmins for the accomplishment and accumulation of merit, I declare are the accessories to develop the mind freeing it from ill will and anger.’
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/099-subha-e1.htm

In the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation the word 'knowing' is translated as 'thinking' - I think both translations work.

Metta

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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

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Ben
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Ben »

But what about samatha practices that do not rely on recollections to cause the hindrances to become quiescent or the jhana factors to manifest?
What is going on?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

Ben wrote:But what about samatha practices that do not rely on recollections to cause the hindrances to become quiescent or the jhana factors to manifest?
What is going on?
It could be the case that such practices are not to be pursued until the hindrances have been abandoned
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html

Or it could be that such practices run in tandem with such recollections. It is quite possible to be recollecting such things and also have a background mindfulness of the breath which feed off each other in tranquilising the body & mind. It is also possible to have similar recollections 'about' the breath e.g. 'it is sublime' , 'it is the Noble practice of the Buddha & his disciples' or 'this leads to dispassion' etc. One point about the four foundations sutta and the anapana sutta is the mention of 'mental contents', I prefer to read this as Dhamma with a capital 'D', Dhamma can cover recollections as diverse as 'the Buddha', 'dispassion', 'virtue' etc. It is perhaps an individual's own propensity to determine what aspects of the Dhamma actually help them in drawing towards jhana. I have always disliked the term 'one pointed' it can totally gear one's thinking into how the meditation should proceed or 'what' the experience of jhana will/should be like. For me, any recollection that can lead to gladness in the Dhamma is a good foundation for jhana to develop.

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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by gavesako »

Tadanga-nibbana is mentioned in the Anguttaranikaya. It is a state that comes about momentarily when external conditions happen, fortuitously, to be such that no idea of "I" or "mine" arises. Tadanga-nibbana is momentary cessation of the idea "I," "mine," due to favorable external circumstances. At a higher level than this, if we engage in some form of Dharma practice, in particular if we develop concentration, so that the idea of "I," "mine" cannot arise, that extinction of "I," "mine" is called vikkhambhana-nibbana. And finally, when we succeed in bringing about the complete elimination of all defilements, that is full Nirvana, total Nirvana.

-- Buddhadasa

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... r_of_I.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

gavesako wrote:Tadanga-nibbana is mentioned in the Anguttaranikaya. It is a state that comes about momentarily when external conditions happen, fortuitously, to be such that no idea of "I" or "mine" arises. Tadanga-nibbana is momentary cessation of the idea "I," "mine," due to favorable external circumstances. At a higher level than this, if we engage in some form of Dharma practice, in particular if we develop concentration, so that the idea of "I," "mine" cannot arise, that extinction of "I," "mine" is called vikkhambhana-nibbana. And finally, when we succeed in bringing about the complete elimination of all defilements, that is full Nirvana, total Nirvana.

-- Buddhadasa

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... r_of_I.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi,

How do we arrive at or what do we recollect for the..... 'external conditions happen, fortuitously', could you please reference the term 'Tadanga-nibbana' and 'vikkhambhana-nibbana' within the Anguttaranikaya.
Thanks.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.
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