Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Gena1480
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Gena1480 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:47 am

this is my understanding
those who follow the 8 noble path
develop Jhana as requirement for steam entry
then they attain the stream entry with instant without Jhana because it has been attain before.
those who attain supramundane Jhana, right away attain Jhana and stream entry
those who do not follow 8 noble path but attain Jhana, does not attain stream entry
thats about it.
metta

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:38 pm

manasikara wrote:..the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
That's the way I understand it. I'm also puzzled by the way some teachers regard jhana as a distraction rather than an essential aspect of practice.

Spiny

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tiltbillings
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:17 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
manasikara wrote:..the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
That's the way I understand it. I'm also puzzled by the way some teachers regard jhana as a distraction rather than an essential aspect of practice.

Spiny
No need to be vague here. What teachers and what do they say?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Gena1480
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Gena1480 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:37 pm

according to some suttas
there is attaining of stream entry
without Jhana completely
i would put this in category
of faith follower
and dry insight
i do not see how this, is actually done.

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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Brizzy » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:20 am

Gena1480 wrote:according to some suttas
there is attaining of stream entry
without Jhana completely
i would put this in category
of faith follower
and dry insight
i do not see how this, is actually done.
By stream entry, do you mean the fruition?
Which sutta actually says that there is an attainment of stream entry without jhana?

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
manasikara wrote:..the Buddha does more than just 'recommend' jhana. The four jhanas constitute 'limb number eight' of the Noble Eightfold Path! We are supposed to develop sammasamadhi, just like all the other limbs of the Path. As for some teachers downplaying jhana, well none of mine do that, so I cannot comment on that issue.
That's the way I understand it. I'm also puzzled by the way some teachers regard jhana as a distraction rather than an essential aspect of practice.

Spiny
No need to be vague here. What teachers and what do they say?
I have found the Thai Forest tradition to be very ambivalent about jhana.

Spiny

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tiltbillings
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:24 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote: I have found the Thai Forest tradition to be very ambivalent about jhana.

Spiny
Any idea why that might be?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Downplaying Jhana

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: I have found the Thai Forest tradition to be very ambivalent about jhana.

Spiny
Any idea why that might be?
The focus seems to be mostly on insight into the 3 characteristics, and so I think jhana is seen as irrelevant because it isn't about insight. But I haven't been deeply involved with Thai Forest and I may have got this wrong - perhaps others would like to comment?

Spiny

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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by manas » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:34 am

I found this article by Ven. Thanissaro very helpful in clarifying some of the issues raised so far:
One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

Gena1480
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Gena1480 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:38 am

Ok now i can answer this question
it is dry insight into 4 noble truth
it is this stiffness that Noble truth of Suffering
stiffness of pain, stiffness of impermanence, stiffness of mental fermentation.
what is stiffness is like
it like your nose is stiff and you cant breath
birth is stiffness
it is hard to breath when one is giving birth
death is stiffness
it is hard to breath when one is dying
aging is stiffness
it is like your skin is stiff (wrinkle)
sickness is stiffness
it is like coughing, stiffness of throat
dissociation with like is stiffness
association with dislike is stiffness
not get what one wants is stiffness
form is stiffness
feeling is stiffness
perception is stiffness
mental formation is stiffness
consciousness is stiffness
if there is no stiffness the five aggregate would cease
Nibbana without the five aggregates
the whole mass of suffering is stiffness
noble truth of origin of suffering
craving for this stiffness,
greed for this stiffness
craving for sense stiffness
craving for becoming stiffness
craving for non becoming stiffness
finding delight in this stiffness
passion for this stiffness
noble truth of cessation of Suffering
it is by giving up the origin of suffering you reach the end of Suffering
what ever subject to origin, subject to cessation, by giving up
and how it is done
by using this very Noble 8 fold path
dry insight
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:37 pm

manasikara wrote:I found this article by Ven. Thanissaro very helpful in clarifying some of the issues raised so far:
One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards
And in that essay an accurate description of the goal of the Burmese vipassana traditions can be found:
  • So, to answer the question with which we began: Vipassana is not a meditation technique. It's a quality of mind — the ability to see events clearly in the present moment. Although mindfulness is helpful in fostering vipassana, it's not enough for developing vipassana to the point of total release. Other techniques and approaches are needed as well. In particular, vipassana needs to be teamed with samatha — the ability to settle the mind comfortably in the present — so as to master the attainment of strong states of absorption, or jhana. Based on this mastery, samatha and vipassana are then applied to a skillful program of questioning, called appropriate attention, directed at all experience: exploring events not in terms of me/not me, or being/not being, but in terms of the four noble truths. The meditator pursues this program until it leads to a fivefold understanding of all events: in terms of their arising, their passing away, their drawbacks, their allure, and the escape from them. Only then can the mind taste release.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:42 pm

tiltbillings wrote: In particular, vipassana needs to be teamed with samatha — the ability to settle the mind comfortably in the present — so as to master the attainment of strong states of absorption, or jhana. Based on this mastery, samatha and vipassana are then applied to a skillful program of questioning, called appropriate attention, directed at all experience: exploring events not in terms of me/not me, or being/not being, but in terms of the four noble truths. The meditator pursues this program until it leads to a fivefold understanding of all events: in terms of their arising, their passing away, their drawbacks, their allure, and the escape from them. Only then can the mind taste release.[/b][/list]
Is this saying that jhana is a necessary precursor for insight to arise?

Spiny

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:22 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: In particular, vipassana needs to be teamed with samatha — the ability to settle the mind comfortably in the present — so as to master the attainment of strong states of absorption, or jhana. Based on this mastery, samatha and vipassana are then applied to a skillful program of questioning, called appropriate attention, directed at all experience: exploring events not in terms of me/not me, or being/not being, but in terms of the four noble truths. The meditator pursues this program until it leads to a fivefold understanding of all events: in terms of their arising, their passing away, their drawbacks, their allure, and the escape from them. Only then can the mind taste release.[/b][/list]
Is this saying that jhana is a necessary precursor for insight to arise?

Spiny
Do the suttas say that jhana is a necessary precursor for insight to arise such that even the sutta-jhana-istsas agree without differing opinions? Do the the suttas define jhana in all its aspects such that there are no differing opinions as what the various aspects are much less what jhana means in the suttas? Jhana is understood in such variation of ways as to make any question concerning jhana such as to require extensive qualifications to be actually meaningful.

Vipassana, insight, does not require jhana, certainly not as jhana is understood in the far end of the bell curve:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 16&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But insight meditation practice certainly does lead to highly refined levels of concentration, which some feel looks like the jhanas some see in the suttas.

This sentence -- vipassana needs to be teamed with samatha — the ability to settle the mind comfortably in the present — so as to master the attainment of strong states of absorption, or jhana -- is, of course, the problem in the above paragraph. I would simply argue that the practice vipassana meditation does lead to highly refined levels of concentration that could be called jhana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana_jhanas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:30 am

tiltbillings wrote: I would simply argue that the practice vipassana meditation does lead to highly refined levels of concentration that could be called jhana.
So in your experience does the experience of vipassana "continue" when jhana is reached?

Spiny

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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:17 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: I would simply argue that the practice vipassana meditation does lead to highly refined levels of concentration that could be called jhana.
So in your experience does the experience of vipassana "continue" when jhana is reached?

Spiny
The problem, as always, with a question such as this is what is meant by jhana. If one means something like the vipassana jhanas, yes to your question; if one means the heavy duty absorption of jhana that is described in the Visuddhimagga, then probably not.

There is no definitive answer that I have seen, but there are a lot of varying opinions on both sides and in-between, often well researched and documented. Look at the OP msgs of this thread, which are, of course, well done, but they are certainly not the final word on the subject of jhana in general or even jhana in terms of the Nikayas.

In terms of actual practice, mostly, it is a matter of looking at what is out there, what speaks to you and then working diligently with that. Concerning these issues, I don't think we need to draw hard and fast lines around our various positions, and probably, for any number of reasons, we really should not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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