A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Ytrog
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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:45 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Ytrog wrote: It was once suggested to me by someone else who was going to become an anagarika (and was already staying at the monastery on a permanent basis for that) that you should gradually distance yourself from your friends. What is your take on this?
If you do become an anagarika and move to the UK I imagine that many friendships will ebb naturally.

:smile:
In the meantime I got the advice of not explicitly cutting of friendships. It will be possible to stay in contact to some degree, so there is no need. I don't think it's appropriate to quote PM's, so I don't.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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James the Giant
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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by James the Giant » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:36 am

If you go to Thailand to become an anagarika, you have to pay for trips to the border to get a new visa every three months, plus the fees involved in that. You can't get the bhikkhu visa, which lasts a year and is renewable for ten years or so, until you are actually ordained as a bhikkhu.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:18 pm

James the Giant wrote:If you go to Thailand to become an anagarika, you have to pay for trips to the border to get a new visa every three months, plus the fees involved in that. You can't get the bhikkhu visa, which lasts a year and is renewable for ten years or so, until you are actually ordained as a bhikkhu.
Thanks. :) Visa problems is one of the reasons I want to go to a country that accepts EU citizens as residents. There are a few countries that match this criteria and have forest monasteries, such as Germany, Italy and the UK. I don't speak German or Italian, so my no. 1 option is the UK.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Anagarika
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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Anagarika » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:44 pm

Is it a requirement that to take anagarika ordination that one reside at the Wat, or even live in the area?

I am interested in taking anagarika ordination ( I was a samanera in Thailand for a short time, now a householder in the US who would like to formally commit myself to my Wat), but am unsure if there is any flexibility in this role.

I want to observe the 8 precepts formally, and have the formal intent to practice as an anagarika for some time, until I may seek to ordain after my vocational obligations cease.

Does anyone here have any experience or thoughts regarding the flexibility (or lack of same) in formally taking anagarika precepts from a Wat?

Thanks in advance for all thoughts.

Mike

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James the Giant
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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by James the Giant » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:29 am

BuddhaSoup wrote:Is it a requirement that to take anagarika ordination that one reside at the Wat, or even live in the area?
I think in your case taking vows as an Upasaka would be more appropriate.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upāsaka_and_Upāsikā
I seem to remember the pali for anagarika means Homeless One, so if you are still working or have family responsibilities or whatever, you can't really be a homeless one.
Seems to me, anyway.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Anagarika » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:59 pm

James the Giant wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote:Is it a requirement that to take anagarika ordination that one reside at the Wat, or even live in the area?
I think in your case taking vows as an Upasaka would be more appropriate.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upāsaka_and_Upāsikā
I seem to remember the pali for anagarika means Homeless One, so if you are still working or have family responsibilities or whatever, you can't really be a homeless one.
Seems to me, anyway.

James, thanks for your comment. I understand the upasaka vows are a 5 precept lay ordination, while the anagarika involves the 8 precepts, or 10, or more depending on the vows assumed. In part, I am trying to see if there is any analogy in Theravada to the Shukke Tokudo ordination in Zen? I have wanted to involve myself in some community pastoral activities ( end of life ministry, orison ministry) and it seems that without some formal ordination or "pastoral title" one would be only a guy in street clothes attending to the dying, say in a hospice or hospital. There may be something to the idea that people seeking pastoral counseling or care need or desire to meet with someone who looks, walks, and quacks like a "priest."

I apologize if these comments sound like I am some guy looking to walk about in flowing robes and a bald head....I'm not at all about the look or the forms, but am conscious that people in the community need to see that one who is doing pastoral work looks the part.

Or, maybe one can be a duck if one just walks and quacks like one. Maybe I am elevating form over substance.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:25 pm

I'm curious about what exactly the difference is between a lay follower who has taken the five precepts and an Upāsaka who has also taken the five precepts?
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by bodom » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:37 pm

Ytrog wrote:I'm curious about what exactly the difference is between a lay follower who has taken the five precepts and an Upāsaka who has also taken the five precepts?
There is no difference. They are one and the same.

Upasaka and Upasika
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... nd_Upasika" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
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With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by JackV » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:38 pm

Ytrog wrote:Thanks Reflection. That about food and supplies I knew as I saw that first hand in Chithurst. I also saw that they bought some items themselves. I got a can of coke there from someone who had been an anagarika for 5-6 years and was in the progress of becoming a lay person again. He bought it himself. I believe his name was Trevor.

For guests they say that it is customary (though not mandatory) to give something for the expenses. I wondered if it was expected from anagarikas as well.
What is expected in terms of capabilities when you become an anagarika? How well do you need to be able to meditate already and how much do you need to know about all the customs. When i went to Chithurst it was a first for me in many of the customs and I sometimes felt a bit ashamed when I didn't know something that for a lot of the people visiting there was completely self-evident.
Hi Ytrog.

I would suggest maybe going back to Cittaviveka and speaking to some of the monks (maybe it would be best if it were Ven Karuniko or Ven Succitto) or maybe just some of the Anagarikas there.
From speaking to some of the folks there the impression I got was that you don't need to know anything, or at least your level of knowledge both in meditation and in terms of customs do not have to be very advanced, thats the point of being an Anagarika - to learn it.
I think before making a decision it would be wise, as I said above, to go back, let them know your intention (after there winter retreat is over in April) and stay there for a month or longer and try to learn all you can.

I spoke to Venerable Moneyyo (tall Austrian guy with glasses) whilst there who was acting as the guest monk and he said that he stayed as a guest twice for a couple of months and then became and Anagarika.

I also have a similar leaning to maybe doing this at some point. However I would prefer to be a bit more equanimous of some of the phenomenon I encounter during meditation first.

I wish you all the best.
Here where a thousand
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Tall grasses their monument.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Buddho » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:37 pm

As far as preparation the most important thing is to keep at least the 8 precepts and be practicing meditation. I don't believe your expected to support yourself but I would recommend having saved money for visa runs if your in another country.

Doing various chores and cleaning is dana. Giving your time and energy to the monks, laity, and the Wat is dana. You really don't need much when at a Wat most of the requisites are provided for.

Everything is a learning process you are NOT expected to know all the customs. Training is all apart of being an anagarika and the preparatory period of becoming a monk. I would suggest you spend more time at a Wat to learn chanting.

Check out this video might help to answer more of your questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ittQd5zk ... plpp_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm also looking to go to Thailand in April to ordain. I've spent two months in a Wat in California. :anjali:

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:43 pm

JackV wrote:
Ytrog wrote:Thanks Reflection. That about food and supplies I knew as I saw that first hand in Chithurst. I also saw that they bought some items themselves. I got a can of coke there from someone who had been an anagarika for 5-6 years and was in the progress of becoming a lay person again. He bought it himself. I believe his name was Trevor.

For guests they say that it is customary (though not mandatory) to give something for the expenses. I wondered if it was expected from anagarikas as well.
What is expected in terms of capabilities when you become an anagarika? How well do you need to be able to meditate already and how much do you need to know about all the customs. When i went to Chithurst it was a first for me in many of the customs and I sometimes felt a bit ashamed when I didn't know something that for a lot of the people visiting there was completely self-evident.
Hi Ytrog.

I would suggest maybe going back to Cittaviveka and speaking to some of the monks (maybe it would be best if it were Ven Karuniko or Ven Succitto) or maybe just some of the Anagarikas there.
From speaking to some of the folks there the impression I got was that you don't need to know anything, or at least your level of knowledge both in meditation and in terms of customs do not have to be very advanced, thats the point of being an Anagarika - to learn it.
I think before making a decision it would be wise, as I said above, to go back, let them know your intention (after there winter retreat is over in April) and stay there for a month or longer and try to learn all you can.

I spoke to Venerable Moneyyo (tall Austrian guy with glasses) whilst there who was acting as the guest monk and he said that he stayed as a guest twice for a couple of months and then became and Anagarika.

I also have a similar leaning to maybe doing this at some point. However I would prefer to be a bit more equanimous of some of the phenomenon I encounter during meditation first.

I wish you all the best.
Thanks for the answer. I already asked some questions about it when I was visiting last July, but I still had a lot of questions left. I'll definitely will be going back this year and ask more questions, though I will have to be mindful that it doesn't become just chatting after a while. I already mentioned my intention back then.

I also just checked http://www.chithurst.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and see that all the guests I was with that had the intention of becoming Anagarikas indeed became Anagarikas :D
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by JackV » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Ytrog wrote: Thanks for the answer. I already asked some questions about it when I was visiting last July, but I still had a lot of questions left. I'll definitely will be going back this year and ask more questions, though I will have to be mindful that it doesn't become just chatting after a while. I already mentioned my intention back then.

I also just checked http://www.chithurst.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and see that all the guests I was with that had the intention of becoming Anagarikas indeed became Anagarikas :D
Wow, really? From speaking to these people at the time that they were guests what did you make of them, I mean how experienced were they as meditators etc?
When I was there I was by far the least experienced meditator and least experienced in terms of temple/monastery customs out of all the guests, female and male.

I'm very glad that you're asking these questions because, as I said, I have a strong desire to do this as well. Although, since I do feel so strongly about it I will not act upon it straight away and see if this desire stays with me for some time (I mean there is no great rush I figure).

I hope that if you do find any information out that is useful to others (such as myself) also looking down the same potential path as you that you can let us know of it; it would be very much appreciated.

Oh, also your comments and advice regarding my visit to Cittaviveka was extremely helpful and went a long way to aleviating my anxiety over the trip, so thank you for that. :anjali:
Here where a thousand
captains swore grand conquest
Tall grasses their monument.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:36 pm

JackV wrote:Wow, really? From speaking to these people at the time that they were guests what did you make of them, I mean how experienced were they as meditators etc?
When I was there I was by far the least experienced meditator and least experienced in terms of temple/monastery customs out of all the guests, female and male.
It depends. They arrived there between weeks and months before me, so by that time they had some experience with the customs and with meditating for the better part of the day (you have to stay as a guest for about three months before becoming an Anagarika). For me it was the first time ever setting foot in a monastery, so i didn't have any experience with the customs at all. I think they were comparable to me when they first arrived.
JackV wrote:Oh, also your comments and advice regarding my visit to Cittaviveka was extremely helpful and went a long way to aleviating my anxiety over the trip, so thank you for that.
I'm glad that it helped. How was your stay there? If you want to talk more you are welcome to PM about it :anjali:
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Bankei » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:06 pm

The anagarika is a modern invention. Just a person with a shaved head.

Why not just become a monk? How many anagarikas do you read about in the Sutta?
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Re: A proper preparation for becoming an anagarika

Post by Ytrog » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:38 pm

Bankei wrote:The anagarika is a modern invention. Just a person with a shaved head.

Why not just become a monk? How many anagarikas do you read about in the Sutta?
I want to become a monk eventually, however in the tradition I want to ordain in you need to be an Anagarika for at least a year to become a Samanera. After another year you might become a Bhikku.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

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