The purpose of cultivating Metta?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by mikenz66 »

Richard Gombrich (e.g. in What the Buddha Thought) also argues that the Theravada misinterpreted the Tevijja Sutta (DN 13) http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh057.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and that when he says "I know, Vāsettha, and the world of Brahmā, and the path which leads unto it" he is actually recasting the Brahminical term to mean Nibbana.

However, it seems strange to blame Buddhaghosa (1000 years after the Buddha) for a "mistake" (if it is a mistake) that appears to be standard in most (all?) Buddhist schools.

:anjali:
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Otsom
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

reflection wrote:Metta directly targets one of the "three fires", namely hatred.

Good point, I hadn't thought about it like this before.

Spiny
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Aloka
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by Aloka »

Hi Coyote,

There's a nice little article 'Universal Loving Kindness' by Ajahn Sumedho here:

http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article_print/215/


and I like this 5 minute video from Ajahn Jayasaro on metta practice



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reflection
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by reflection »

Coyote wrote:
danieLion wrote:"Metta as a Path to Awakening." by John Peacock

http://www.audiodharma.org/series/207/talk/2603/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

May you grow fat with friendliness.
Daniel :heart:
Thanks Daniel, these have been very helpful. I notice that the speaker recognises that Metta can lead directly to liberation rather than just to a better birth; is he being unorthodox here or is this something that is taught within the Theravada?
reflection wrote:Metta directly targets one of the "three fires", namely hatred. It is also one of the hindrances in meditation.

Therefore it is very useful to cultivate metta.
Here is where my understanding stops - I think it is because I have not had a sufficient grounding in basics such as these - are these "three fires", hatred, ignorance and attachment, the primary chains keeping us in Samasra, and does the threefold division of the noble eightfold path correspond to these "three fires"? Thank you for your explanation, I am having trouble piecing together these concepts in my mind.

Thanks,

Coyote
The three fires (greed, hatred, delusion) are also known as the three poisons and are indeed the main things that keep us from enlightenment. They do not one-on-one correspond to the three parts of the path, though. Of course they do indirectly, because the path is what supresses them.

But if you want to put the pieces together, it's probably is clearer in meditation. Hatred towards others, yourself or even situations can really be an obstacle in meditation, it prevents you from getting relaxed and focussed. Metta is a direct counter to this and learning when you can apply it is very useful. So I really recommend doing some metta once in a while. Some traditions even make it their main practice of meditation, which I think is totally understandable, because as a side-effect it also represses the other hindrances. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

But although a lot of things in the dhamma are numbered and listed, I think you should always keep in mind that these things may just be indicators of what is going on and do not describe everything fully; if the dhamma could be fully explained in words, we would all be enlightened after reading the suttas ;)

With metta,
Reflection
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Otsom,

Thank you for your interesting contribution:
Otsom wrote:
If a bhikṣu cultivates the mind of loving kindness, having cultivated much, achieves a great fruition, a great benefit. ... ... This bhikṣu’s mind, endowed with loving kindness, cultivates the awakening factor of mindfulness, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release. Up to, ... cultivates the awakening factor of equanimity, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release.
I'm not particularly pushing Richard Gombrich's interpretation, I simply wanted to bring it up for discussion and it's interesting to hear a non-Theravada perspective, which seems to agree that the brahmaviharas may be used as an aid to liberation (just as many other meditation objects), but are not, in themselves liberation.

:anjali:
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by danieLion »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Otsom,

Thank you for your interesting contribution:
Otsom wrote:
If a bhikṣu cultivates the mind of loving kindness, having cultivated much, achieves a great fruition, a great benefit. ... ... This bhikṣu’s mind, endowed with loving kindness, cultivates the awakening factor of mindfulness, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release. Up to, ... cultivates the awakening factor of equanimity, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release.
I'm not particularly pushing Richard Gombrich's interpretation, I simply wanted to bring it up for discussion and it's interesting to hear a non-Theravada perspective, which seems to agree that the brahmaviharas may be used as an aid to liberation (just as many other meditation objects), but are not, in themselves liberation.

:anjali:
Mike
The question is not about whether the brahmaviharas can be used as part of the path "just as many other meditation objects." The instruction is to cultivate the four factors, which Peacock & Gombrich take for granted. But they take it further and state that when cultivated they are also a metaphor for liberation/nibbana (which I don't necessarily agree with either).
Daniel :heart:
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by danieLion »

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Gombrich is not unaware of the texts that contradict his position, but he casually dismisses them as the work of "the compilers of other suttas" (p. 61). The contrary evidence, however, is just too weighty to allow such an easy way out.
Perhaps Ven. Bodhi is showing his doctrinal bias?

Gombrich's "dismissal" is anything but casual:
One thing about which I feel rather uncertain is how interested the Buddha himself was in presenting a philosophically coherent doctrine. I have no doubt that such a doctrine is to be found in the Pali Canon, but to what extent is it due to later systematisers? Even if it is not due to later hands--and I incline to the unsurprising view that the Buddha was probably a greater thinker, indeed a greater philosopher than his disciples--are we misrepresenting him if we attribute to him an impressive edifice of a argument...?

To deny here [in the Tevijja Sutta] the Buddha is saying that infinite kindness, compassion, etc. bring Enlightenment is to do obvious violence to the text. This denial however became orthodox at a very early stage.... [T]he systematisers may have falsified the Buddha's views, sacrificing power and beauty of thought in order to build a coherent system.
(pp. 26, 60-1, How Buddhism Began, my bolds/underlines).
Daniel :heart:
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by danieLion »

Aloka wrote:Hi Coyote,

There's a nice little article 'Universal Loving Kindness' by Ajahn Sumedho...
Hi Aloka,
"Loving-kindness" is a horrible translation of metta, and where does this "universal" nonsense come from?
Daniel :heart:
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reflection
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by reflection »

danieLion wrote:
Aloka wrote:Hi Coyote,

There's a nice little article 'Universal Loving Kindness' by Ajahn Sumedho...
Hi Aloka,
"Loving-kindness" is a horrible translation of metta, and where does this "universal" nonsense come from?
Daniel :heart:
It's in the article, first paragraph..
We contemplate all phenomena, all sentient beings, in terms of loving-kindness rather than in terms of which is best, which is worst, what we like, what we don’t like.

Also, what do you think is wrong with the term and what do you suggest as an alternative? I personally think it is a very nice translation.


With metta,
Reflection
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mikenz66
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by mikenz66 »

danieLion wrote: The question is not about whether the brahmaviharas can be used as part of the path "just as many other meditation objects." The instruction is to cultivate the four factors, which Peacock & Gombrich take for granted. But they take it further and state that when cultivated they are also a metaphor for liberation/nibbana (which I don't necessarily agree with either).
Yes, thank you, that is what I was trying to say.

And, as you say, it is then a matter of opinion whether one agrees with Gombrich and Peacock or what appears to be the conclusion of most schools of Buddhism.

:anjali:
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Otsom wrote:A non-Theravada opinion based on early teachings, from Yinshun: Investigations into Śūnyatā (draft translation by Shi Huifeng):
The four immeasurable minds which take the mind of loving kindness as their basis are an accommodation to Brahmanism. For example, Śāriputra advised his old friend, the Brahmin Dhānañjāni, to cultivate the four immeasurable minds so that he would be reborn in the brahma heavens after death, because “these Brahmins love and cling to Brahma through this long night (=saṃsāra)”. The legendary past life story of King Mahāsudarśana (or Mahāsudassana) is also about cultivation of the four brahma abidings to attain rebirth in the brahma heavens. Thus, according to the teachings given in most of the sūtra passages, the four immeasurable minds are mundane concentration dharmas, they are with influx, and are familial concentrations (kullaka-vihāra). However, in the early period of the Buddha Dharma, the four concentrations of loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity, are clearly purificatory and leading upwards to the path to release, the entrance to the ambrosial [deathless] (amata, amṛta). From the fact that the four immeasurable minds are also called immeasurable mind releases, and from their high point at the immovable mind release, we can still clearly and certainly see their earliest meaning and implications. As the SĀ, folio 27 [sūtra 744 = SN 46:62 Mettā], states:

If a bhikṣu cultivates the mind of loving kindness, having cultivated much, achieves a great fruition, a great benefit. ... ... This bhikṣu’s mind, endowed with loving kindness, cultivates the awakening factor of mindfulness, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release. Up to, ... cultivates the awakening factor of equanimity, based on forsaking, based on non-desire, based on cessation, tends towards release.

The so-called “great fruition, great benefit”, is either the two [āryan] fruitions and two benefits of anāgami and arahant; or it is the four [āryan] fruitions and four benefits, from the śrotaāpanna to arahant; or it is the seven [āryan] fruitions and seven benefits, of the two types of arahant and five types of anāgamin. Loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity, cultivated together with the seven factors of awakening, are able to lead to the attainment of the great fruition and great benefit, and are naturally conducive to the influx free path to release.
Thanks for this. ;)

May I ask where you got the file from?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
danieLion
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by danieLion »

Aloka wrote:There's a nice little article 'Universal Loving Kindness' by Ajahn Sumedho...
danieLion wrote:"Loving-kindness" is a horrible translation of metta, and where does this "universal" nonsense come from?
reflection wrote:It's in the article, first paragraph..
Sorry. I meant what's the textual/teachings of the Buddha basis/source/justification, etc....
reflection wrote:Also, what do you think is wrong with the term and what do you suggest as an alternative? I personally think it is a very nice translation?

I like these:

Ven Thanissaro: good-will
John Peackock: growing fat with unbounded friendliness

Metta has nothing to do with love.

May you grow fat with unbounded friendliness.
Daniel :heart:
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Re: The purpose of cultivating Metta?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

These may be of interest:

Metta - The Philosophy and Practice of Universal Love by Acharya Buddharakkhita

The Pali word metta is a multi-significant term meaning loving-kindness, friendliness, goodwill, benevolence, fellowship, amity, concord, inoffensiveness and non-violence. The Pali commentators define metta as the strong wish for the welfare and happiness of others (parahita-parasukha-kamana). Essentially metta is an altruistic attitude of love and friendliness as distinguished from mere amiability based on self-interest. Through metta one refuses to be offensive and renounces bitterness, resentment and animosity of every kind, developing instead a mind of friendliness, accommodativeness and benevolence which seeks the well-being and happiness of others. True metta is devoid of self-interest. It evokes within a warm-hearted feeling of fellowship, sympathy and love, which grows boundless with practice and overcomes all social, religious, racial, political and economic barriers. Metta is indeed a universal, unselfish and all-embracing love. [……………………………………]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el365.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mettā: 'Lit: friendliness' or 'loving-kindness', is one of the 4 sublime abodes brahma-vihāra.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... m.htm#mett" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;ā

Mettā
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... .3:10.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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