Ben wrote: ancientbuddhism wrote:
Ben Wrote: I've never heard of the Burmese vipassana tenet system.
Perhaps you could do us the favour of explaining what you mean by this statement.
Call it by its various dīpanī or kathā if you like.
I don't call it anything. Purely for the purposes of discussion, the teachings of various Burmese Vipassana teachers have been described as "Burmese Vipassana". By describing it as a 'tenet system' as you have, you infer something monolithic - which it isn't.
cooran wrote:'Tenet System'' does seem an unusual term to introduce into a discussion on a Theravada list.
My understanding of the term is that, in religion, a tenet can be a central belief or doctrine that is proclaimed to be true without scientific proof.
I don't think this could be applied to tried and tested methods of meditation.
(noun) : a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true; especially: one held in common by members of an organization, movement, or profession
And doctrinal tenets within sectarian Theravāda are being discussed here.
Again, call it dīpanī
if you like. Below is from the Mahāsi system, which are found in common, although arranged differently perhaps, within Burmese Vipassanā, and as regurgitated throughout Theravāda for the most part.
The Progress of Insight (Vipassanā) Through the (seven) Stages of Purification:
I. Purification of Conduct (sīla-visuddhi)
II. Purification of Mind (citta-visuddhi)
III. Purification of View (diṭṭhi-visuddhi)
1. Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind (nāma-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāṇa)
IV. Purification by Overcoming Doubt (kaṅkhā-vitaraṇa-visuddhi)
2. Knowledge by Discerning Conditionality (paccaya-pariggaha-ñāṇa)
3. Knowledge by Comprehension (sammasana-ñāṇa)
4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away (I) (udayabbaya-ñāṇa)
V. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of what is Path and Not-Path (maggāmagga-ñāṇadassana-visuddhi)
VI. Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Course of Practice (paṭipadā-ñāṇadassana-visuddhi)
5. Knowledge of Dissolution (bhaṅga-ñāṇa)
6. Awareness (Knowledge) of Fearfulness (bhayatupaṭṭhāna-ñāṇa)
7. Knowledge of Misery (ādīnava-ñāṇa)
8. Knowledge of Disgust (nibbidā-ñāṇa)
9. Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muñcitu-kamyatā-ñāṇa)
10. Knowledge of Re-observation (paṭisaṅkhānupassana-ñāṇa)
11. Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (saṅkhārupekkhā-ñāṇa)
12. Insight leading to Emergence (vuṭṭhānagāminī-vipassanā-ñāṇa)
13. Knowledge of Adaptation (anuloma-ñāṇa)
14. Maturity of Knowledge (gotrabhu-ñāṇa)
VII. Purification by Knowledge and Vision (ñāṇadassana-visuddhi)
15. Path Knowledge (magga-ñāṇa)
16. Fruition Knowledge (phala-ñāṇa)
17. Knowledge of Reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa-ñāṇa)
18. Attainment of Fruition (phala-samāpatti)
19. The Highest Paths and Fruitions (Uparimagga-bhāvanā
A well organized system of doctrinal tenets.
ancientbuddhism wrote:The distinction that I made is that 19th century Burmese vipassanā cannot be found in the Buddha’s teachings.
Ben wrote:As you have already stated, vipassana is found in the Buddha's teaching.
And this is where we are talking around each other. I have shown that there is a distinct difference between nikāyan vipassanā
and Burmese Vipassanā in terms of context and to the suttas. To discuss or guess the reasons for this disconnect I will leave to others. I only suggest that the above tenet-system cannot be found in the suttas.
Ben wrote:The fact that certain "insight exercises" were later developed to facilitate the arising of vipassana, I think, is not important.
The above list is taken directly from the Visuddhi Ñāṇa Kathā
and similar lists are found in U Ba Khin's and Ledi Sayādaw's literature. These are not simply "insight exercises", but are assertions of values to be found and developed in contemplative effort. Where these would fit in the suttas and where they fail is important to some.
ancientbuddhism wrote:That Burmese vipassanā claiming support from the suttas is one thing, but to back-read its tenet system into the suttas is quite another.
Ben wrote:I am beginning to wonder whether your use of the use of the term "tenet system" is to cast negative aspersions on something you don't like.
I prefer to distinguish what are the teachings of the Buddha, as closely as I can discern from the suttas. If discussing the doctrines of Burmese Vipassanā as tenets
bothers you, I suggest that you simply read this as dīpanī
as these would apply in yours or other Vipassanā schools. Also, I realize that there can be some degree of emotional investment in ones 'school' or 'tradition'. And as I have none other than the Buddha as Ajahn, I apologize if my discussing these matters has upset you 'and others'.
Ben wrote:Since you have used the term several times in this thread I would appreciate it if you could tell us what this tenet system is. Especially since it has never been defined nor discussed in any literature that I have ever come across.
As given above, and there are other examples from the U Ba Khin and Ledi Sayādaw literature. I must admit that I am a little surprised that you haven't read these, but many are content to just ad-hoc from retreats.
Ben wrote:Please feel free to provide textual support.
This has been given as relevant.