Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:56 am

robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.
And how do you know they aren't wrong?

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gavesako
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by gavesako » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:20 am

If you want a purely philosophical discussion of this issue, see Samanera Bodhesako's CHANGE:

https://pathpress.wordpress.com/bodhesako/change/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It boils down to this question:

"Does ketchup pour faster for enlightened beings?"


:popcorn:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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robertk
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by robertk » Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:54 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.
And how do you know they aren't wrong?
Why do I believe the Theravada to uphold true Dhamma is what you are asking I guess and that must be becuase of accumulations over lifetimes, its why I am not a zen man or Tibten (or Muslim for that matter).
Well I've written extensively about the tHeravada tradition and how Buddhaghosa was the compiler of the very ancient Commentaries that date back even to the first council. It all fits perfectly, accurately , and agrees with what I sense to be true about reality.

But that is of course not a convincing reason, and no one should/could be swayed by someones personal anecdotes.
So I just explain what I know and let people who are interested see if it clicks..then they can maybe start to see that lobha is almost always present, especially when we feel convinced about our 'progess' ,. If they can be then directly aware of lobha, there and then , the path will start to become clearer . IMHO of course.

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Ben
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:17 am

robertk wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:You reach the conclusion that because these techniques are based on the Abhidhamma Commentaries of Theravada, that it is the Commentaries -with their emphasis on paramattha dhammas, momentary arising and ceasing, billions in a finger snap that are wrong.
And how do you know they aren't wrong?
Why do I believe the Theravada to uphold true Dhamma is what you are asking I guess and that must be becuase of accumulations over lifetimes, its why I am not a zen man or Tibten (or Muslim for that matter).
Well I've written extensively about the tHeravada tradition and how Buddhaghosa was the compiler of the very ancient Commentaries that date back even to the first council. It all fits perfectly, accurately , and agrees with what I sense to be true about reality.

But that is of course not a convincing reason, and no one should/could be swayed by someones personal anecdotes.
So I just explain what I know and let people who are interested see if it clicks..then they can maybe start to see that lobha is almost always present, especially when we feel convinced about our 'progess' ,. If they can be then directly aware of lobha, there and then , the path will start to become clearer . IMHO of course.
Well said, Robert!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:52 am

robertk wrote:But that is of course not a convincing reason....
No, it isn't.

Some people would rather learn Buddhadhamma than Buddhaghosadhamma.

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daverupa
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:57 am

mikenz66 wrote:But it doesn't seem a very convincing argument to me to assert that if one does some practice it means one is buying into some particular philosophy.
Ones Effort is based on ones View and Intention.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Ben
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:05 pm

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:But it doesn't seem a very convincing argument to me to assert that if one does some practice it means one is buying into some particular philosophy.
Ones Effort is based on ones View and Intention.
I think Dave is that they condition and influence each other.
That is at least my experience and my observation of other long-term practitioners.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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daverupa
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Ben wrote:I think Dave is that they condition and influence each other.
That is at least my experience and my observation of other long-term practitioners.
I agree there is reflexive feedback. However,

Yes or No: With wrong view... wrong intention as condition, ... wrong mindfulness.

Because I think this is very important for a lot of people, these days.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Ben
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Ben » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:20 pm

Thanks Dave.
Again, from my own experience - I don't think its important to get one's philosophical ducks lined up before its possible to engage in practice and generate insight.
And my understanding of right view is different from intellectual understanding. My apologies if you are not imputing that.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

Brizzy
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Brizzy » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:04 pm

Personal experience seems to be the only way to discuss dissolution.
Having experienced 'dissolution' on numerous occasions on BV retreat's, I can offer the following personal observations...........

a) It can be a very unsettling experience (not always).
b) It is achieved by a repeatable process that relies on specific conditions regarding environment, philosophical teachings and meditative techniques.
c) Depending on one's personal understanding of the Buddha Dhamma one can achieve an experience of non-self (which in itself is just a perception and not very extraordinary unless one can sustain such perception)
d) Except for the perception of non-self, few of the experiences I personally experienced, or were intimated that might be experienced can actually be aligned with the Buddha's Dhamma.
e) Having also been a Tibetan Buddhist student for many years I came to realise that in some ways the BV is a stripped down version of chakra/tantra techniques which aim at developing and experiencing or manipulating sensations/energies within the body.
f) If dissolution is what you want to experience then the BV traditions are to be recommended, if you want to experience vipassana within the framework that the Buddha taught then I would advise people look to the jhana's(body aware) or at least sit down to meditate with the desire & intention to experience a certain amount of joy based upon seclusion.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.

dhamma follower
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:54 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Questions:

(i) Is it really true that mind (nāma) and matter (rūpa) are discrete, momentary things undergoing incessant dissolution?

(ii) Is it really true that matter is comprised of momentary kalāpas which undergo incessant dissolution?

(iii) If so, how do you know this to be true?

(iv) If not, can "insight" into conceptual fictions really be considered insight at all?

:candle:
Hi Nana,

(i) I wouldn't use the term "things", but I would say yes,mental and material dhammas arise co-dependently with consciousness and fall away incessantly.

(ii) Yes, in conformation with (i)

(iii) panna has a function to confirm what it knows to be true.

(iv) Do not apply because of yes to (i), (ii), (iii)

Regards,

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:20 pm

Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:I think it is rather that vipassana is not about technique, it is much much more subtle and deep than that.
I concur.
kind regards,

Ben
So do I !

Regards,

Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:10 pm

daverupa wrote:Yes or No: With wrong view... wrong intention as condition, ... wrong mindfulness.

Because I think this is very important for a lot of people, these days.
Indeed.

Why would one devote one's precious time on the sitting cushion or in retreat practicing bare attention to incessant dissolution and so on, unless one believed that there was good reason to do so?

On the other hand, if one understands the practice of bare attention to be of limited use in and of itself and considers the doctrine of momentariness to be an unwarranted deviation from the view of the four noble truths and specific conditionality, then it seems likely that they will devote their sitting practice and retreat time to developing a wider range of skills pertaining to mindfulness and samādhi. Ven. Ṭhānissaro, One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassanā in Buddhist Practice:
  • To take a reductionist approach to the practice can produce only reduced results, for meditation is a skill like carpentry, requiring a mastery of many tools in response to many different needs. To limit oneself to only one approach in meditation would be like trying to build a house when one's motivation is uncertain and one's tool box contains nothing but hammers.
Nothing more need be said.

:candle:

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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by dhamma follower » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:36 am

Ñāṇa wrote: On the other hand, if one understands the practice of bare attention to be of limited use in and of itself and considers the doctrine of momentariness to be an unwarranted deviation from the view of the four noble truths and specific conditionality, then it seems likely that they will devote their sitting practice and retreat time to developing a wider range of skills pertaining to mindfulness and samādhi. Ven. Ṭhānissaro, One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassanā in Buddhist Practice:
  • To take a reductionist approach to the practice can produce only reduced results, for meditation is a skill like carpentry, requiring a mastery of many tools in response to many different needs. To limit oneself to only one approach in meditation would be like trying to build a house when one's motivation is uncertain and one's tool box contains nothing but hammers.
Nothing more need be said.

:candle:
Likewise, there can be multiple nuances of bare attention, and the doctrine of momentariness is not supposed to be thrown away altogether just because one has not yet directly experienced it. It is so easy to go from one extreme to the other...

Let's continue our investigation of the Dhamma free from fixed ideas about things unstated by the Buddha.

Regards,

Nyana
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Re: Vipassanā: What Is Dissolution, Really?

Post by Nyana » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:32 am

dhamma follower wrote:the doctrine of momentariness is not supposed to be thrown away altogether just because one has not yet directly experienced it.
The doctrine of momentariness is pseudo-impermanence. It was a poor idea when it was first thought up and it remains a poor idea to this day.

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