Could someone please explain this rule?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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manas
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Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:47 am

Hi everyone,

I decided today to have a read of the Vinaya, and so far it has been an illuminating window into the monastic way of life. I came across a rule that I cannot as yet see the value of, and I was wondering if comeone could please explain to me why it is an offense entailing confession:
Bhikkhu Pāṭimokkha wrote:Pācittiya: Rules entailing confession
Part One: The Lie Chapter ...

...4. Should any bhikkhu have an unordained person recite Dhamma line by line (with him), it is to be confessed.
What exactly is meant by 'reciting Dhamma line by line', and if I may ask, why is it considered an offense? If such recitation was for the purpose of instructing the unordained person in dhamma, would that still be considered an offense, or would it be ok?

Thanks in advance

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by alan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:53 am

Just one of many pointless rules.

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theravada_guy
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by theravada_guy » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:58 am

I have Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Buddhist Monastic Code" in hard copy. I haven't started reading it yet. The smaller volume I have on the same subject didn't mention anything about this. But, Ajahn Thanissaro's book (it's actuallly two volumes) is online in PDF format. You might be able to find it in there. But, other than that, I can't help you. I know, this post doesn't really help you all that much, I just thought I would throw that book out there as a possible source for an answer.
With metta,

Justin

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Goofaholix
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:01 am

manasikara wrote: What exactly is meant by 'reciting Dhamma line by line', and if I may ask, why is it considered an offense? If such recitation was for the purpose of instructing the unordained person in dhamma, would that still be considered an offense, or would it be ok?
This URL goes into it in detail http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:09 am

alan wrote:Just one of many pointless rules.
Actually I'm seeing the value of the vast majority of the rules, even for this modern age many are still highly relevant. Going rule by rule through them, this is the first one I've not been able to see the importance of, however I expect that this is due to my misunderstanding of exactly what 'recitation' means in this particular context, so I await clarification from someone who knows.

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by manas » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:55 am

Goofaholix wrote:
This URL goes into it in detail http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Goofaholix, I will check it out.

metta
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by alan » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:06 am

Rules, rules, rules. Rules are boring.
If you cannot live a decent life without obsessing about pointless, ridiculous rules, then what is your problem?
I have to seriously question people who need to submit themselves to a legion of rules.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:26 am

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:I have to seriously question people who need to submit themselves to a legion of rules.
I'm sure there are a few bhikkhus here who might regard your concern as somewhat misplaced.

The undertaking of additional rules is a voluntary procedure... ranging from the standard five, to the full patimokkha, with some gradients inbetween. If the individual did not see the benefit in it for their practice, they would not do it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Buckwheat
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by Buckwheat » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:17 am

alan wrote:Rules, rules, rules. Rules are boring.
If you cannot live a decent life without obsessing about pointless, ridiculous rules, then what is your problem?
I have to seriously question people who need to submit themselves to a legion of rules.
It seems taking on the rules is an act of humility and devotion. Also an act of generosity that develops a strong sense of self worth.

Charlie Parker was a jazz musician who said, "Learn the changes.... then forget them." You must learn the song really well and practice it until it becomes internalized. Then just play with it. I think it is similar with the rules for Buddhists. I think the rules are supposed to be learned, respected, taken seriously, and practiced until they come naturally. Only then can one practice deep virtue without any concern for rules.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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manas
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by manas » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:27 am

Whether this rule was instituted by the Buddha or not (and there might well have been a valid reason for it back in ancient India of 2600 years ago that we in the modern world cannot now comprehend), I'm not going to concern myself any longer that I cannot see it's necessity. The entire pali canon is available online for us laypersons to read, anyway. And if we study some basic pali, we can train ourselves to recite the entire tipitaka - in pali - without having to ask a monk to first recite it for us. And so to worry any further about this little rule, for me, would be like seeing a large and beautiful elephant walking by, and noticing that a bit of vine or creeper was caught in one of it's toenails. So I'm just letting it go now. But I thank everyone who commented.

:anjali:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

Jhana4
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:21 am

alan wrote:Rules, rules, rules. Rules are boring.
If you cannot live a decent life without obsessing about pointless, ridiculous rules, then what is your problem?
I have to seriously question people who need to submit themselves to a legion of rules.
This is where I see the value in a new and emerging Western Buddhism. Yes, some value will be lost in the birth of a new tradition, but it is a great opportunity to leave behind things which long ago stopped being of value beyond the satisfaction of the mindless keeping of tradition for traditions sake.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:35 am

Greetings Jhana4,

Well the tradition itself says that "minor rules" can be abolished.

If any group decided to boldly make a determination (hopefully a well educated one) on precisely which were the "minor rules", then that is possible.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Jhana4
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:42 am

That sort of comes full circle back to the point Alan and I made. A lot of useless things ( and possibly regressive ) for the sake of tradition. That is where starting a new "tradition" provides an opportunity. To easily leave things behind that people in long established institutions do not have the political power or courage to leave behind.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:50 am

Greetings Jhana4,

In the absence of a Theravada figure-head (i.e. equivalent to HHDL) means that different communities will do and interpret things differently. The issue of bhikkhuni ordination serves as a case-in-point.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

alan
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Re: Could someone please explain this rule?

Post by alan » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:25 am

A perfect example of idiotic rules determining modern behavior!

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