Disrobing

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Disorbing

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:56 pm

Buckwheat wrote:Temporary ordination is more productive than going to college to join a fraternity.
There's no comparision.

A more relevant question would be is temporary ordination more productive than an extended meditation retreat as a lay person over the same period of time, I think not.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Buckwheat
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Re: Disorbing

Post by Buckwheat » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:11 pm

Goofaholix wrote: A more relevant question would be is temporary ordination more productive than an extended meditation retreat as a lay person over the same period of time, I think not.
Sorry, my post was hyperbole. I did not mean to get off topic to the ethics of temporary ordination. The OP was:
rowyourboat wrote:I would like to know the reasons why monks disrobe. Have you disrobed and if so why? No judgments here- just trying to understand.
Last edited by Buckwheat on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

Buckwheat
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Re: Disorbing

Post by Buckwheat » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:16 pm

Gena1480 wrote:it should be no concern to laity for reason of disrobing
since they did not put the robes on.
What if a lay person is giving some serious consideration to putting the robes on? I, for one, am doing just such a thing, but I do not want to end up realizing three months from now (or ten years) "Oh, crap!! This ain't for me." So I would very much like to know what causes a monk to disrobe, and I think it serves a skillful purpose.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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daverupa
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Re: Disorbing

Post by daverupa » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:50 pm

My anecdote is that most seem to disrobe during the 30-45-year-old period, on account of a wish to start a family - at least, they all end up having families.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Disorbing

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:10 pm

I'm not sure if it does serve any useful purpose, though there's no harm in asking. Maybe someone who has disrobed will offer a personal perspective.

In simple terms, greed, hatred, and delusion are the reasons why monks disrobe. Of those monks I have known who disrobed, the number one cause was lust. Most got into a relationship with a woman.

However, that doesn't really answer the question very well. All monks who are not Non-returners still have lust, but they don't all disrobe — they find ways to overcome those feelings. There are other factors at play such as discontent that lead them to get involved with a woman in the first place.

Its a very personal decision, and knowing one monk's reasons is not likely to help someone else. If one asked instead, “Why did you get divorced?” one would get the same kind of answers. Desire for another woman, discontent with the current marriage, but would it help anyone contemplating getting married? It depends on so many different conditions that it is hard to predict what will happen in ten years from now.

Check out the community that you plan to ordain in, stay for an extended period before ordaining, then make your decision. Ten years spent as a monk may not help your career prospects, but its never a waste of time. You will definitely learn a lot about yourself that will benefit you later in life — things that you would probably never learn as a lay person. Think of it as doing a ten-year retreat instead of a 10-day retreat. Someone who disrobes in their thirties after ten years as a monk is more likely to ordain again at sixty-five than someone who has never ordained before.
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Buckwheat
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Re: Disorbing

Post by Buckwheat » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:53 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Its a very personal decision...
:goodpost:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Disorbing

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:21 am

Greetings bhante,

As always, thank you for sharing your insights with us.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Gena1480
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Re: Disrobing

Post by Gena1480 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:33 am

if you know the reason for putting on robes.
you will know the reason for taking robes off.
if you don't know the reason for putting on robes.
you will not know reason for taking robes off.

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daverupa
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Re: Disrobing

Post by daverupa » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:29 pm

Gena1480 wrote:if you know the reason for putting on robes.
you will know the reason for taking robes off.
if you don't know the reason for putting on robes.
you will not know reason for taking robes off.
Sadhu!
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

Buckwheat
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Re: Disrobing

Post by Buckwheat » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:31 am

Gena1480 wrote:if you know the reason for putting on robes.
you will know the reason for taking robes off.
if you don't know the reason for putting on robes.
you will not know reason for taking robes off.
Good point, except I already know I'm ignorant. That's what I'm trying to fix. :shrug: :reading: :meditate: :sage:
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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Anagarika
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Re: Disrobing

Post by Anagarika » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:30 pm

I had the opportunity to temporarily ordain, in Thailand, as a samanera.

Most everyone on this honorable board understands that in Thailand, temporary novice ordination is a Thai Sangha custom and practice.

In the case of my novice ordination at Wat Sri Boen Ruang, I was expected as a lay person at the temple to study Dhamma, to study Pali, to meditate, to chant with the monks, to maintain precepts and to otherwise do all necessary to earn the right to request permission of the Abbott to ordain as a samanera.

I was given permission of the Abbot to ordain, and the date was set. More serious study ensued. I was told that the preceptor was a very serious senior Abbot, and that he would not ordain anyone unless they met his standards. So, I was on notice that I needed, as a farang, to be serious, focused, and humble in all of the preparation.

Despite my failings during the ordination procedure, I was ordained. My Pail was poor, and I am surprised that this Ven. Abbot allowed me to ordain.

Once ordained, I went on morning alms rounds. I lived as a novice monk, and meditated and chanted with the other novices and the Bhikkhus.

To get back onto the subject topic, when the time came for me to disrobe and re-enter lay life in street clothes, the day was one of the most heartfelt, sad, and joyous days of my life. I was deeply grateful for the experience, and have the sense that I will re-ordain when I am able, even to the point of completing my life on this planet as a monk.

There is a well known saying of, I believe, Ajahn Chah, easy to ordain, easy to disrobe. I can say for my part that the opportunity to ordain as a samanera in Thailand was extraordinary, and deeply and humbly appreciated . As Bhante pointed out on this forum, so much of the question of ordaining and disrobing lies with intention. I would wish this experience on anyone on this forum.

abhishek_laser
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Re: Disrobing

Post by abhishek_laser » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:45 am

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Last edited by abhishek_laser on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bankei
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Re: Disrobing

Post by Bankei » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:41 am

I've spoken to a lot of monks and former monks, mainly Thai and foreigners associated with Thailand.

It seems a major time for those long term monks disrobing is when they reach the ages 30 to 35 as this is when they start thinking of whether to leave and start a family find a job etc or not. If they reach any further then it may become harder to leave.

bankei
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