The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by danieLion »

mindfullmom wrote:Thank you for that Daniel.... But I'm wondering what your thoughts are based on your studies and your personal experiences, not what other thinkers, as great as they have been, have philosophized about.
Why do you prefer my thoughts over someone else's? The quality of a thought is not necessarily connected to the thinker.

You're not one of those people who believe in "original thinking," are you?

Separating understanding "what others think" from personal experience is a false dichotomy.

What do you mean by "philosophize"?

D :heart:
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by danieLion »

Another false dichotomy: 1% versus 99%.
D :heart:
mindfullmom
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by mindfullmom »

Thank you Kim.

I did actually read that first and I have just re-read it and the first few pages of the discussion and no one has put forth the question, do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom?

Jason would like to see us move further into a socialist type of economic system. Jason would like to see more government involvement in the form of more programs like universal health care. More government programs requires more money from the taxpayer. And as the article pointed out:
A fair distribution of wealth and investment in infrastructure are advocated, and since this wealth comes from the King’s own surplus, which can only have come from the people themselves, there is an implication that over-taxation has resulted in poverty-related crime. A fair and moderate taxation system which protects the poor would be logically consistent with the moral of the sutta. As a result of these policies, everyone benefits. Citizens are no longer forced by poverty into criminal activity, and therefore escape the risk of dire punishments. Ordinary citizens enjoy peace of mind, and can “with joy in their hearts play with their children and dwell in open houses,” and the King’s job of maintaining a stable society is made considerably easier.
There are strong resonances here with the Occupy Wall Street phenomenon, which has moved far beyond Wall Street, to over 1500 places at the time of writing.
Maybe I should re- phrase the question. At what point do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom? How much is too little? How much is enough? How much it too much?
This question is turning into a real show stopper :shrug:

Daniel, I'm getting the feeling you would rather not answer this one and that's okay. It's just a question, I'm not baiting you. :meditate:
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mindfullmom wrote:Maybe I should re- phrase the question. At what point do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom? How much is too little? How much is enough? How much it too much?
Government should be there to serve society.

Freedom as it is popularized in the U.S. is interesting - it seems to be promoted as being synonymous with "economic choice", as if somehow that is the pinnacle of all freedoms.

So stepping back from that part of your question and focusing on the too little / enough / too much aspect, in a market-based economy it's "enough" at the threshhold where incremental economic benefit equals (and stops exceeding) the incremental economic cost... that is the theory of public consumption, which the state should facilitate.

However, that is premised again on the underlying assumption that "money" is the proxy for all that is good, positive, and desirable... and whilst it's a contributing factor to benefit, raw aggregated dollar-benefit is not the be all and end all, despite what many neo-classical economists will tell you - there are many other factors, most less tangible and less material - funny enough, just like human experience.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DNS
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by DNS »

mindfullmom wrote: Maybe I should re- phrase the question. At what point do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom? How much is too little? How much is enough? How much it too much?
This question is turning into a real show stopper :shrug:
Hi mindfullmom,

The issue might be that one could believe in a high level of personal freedom and at the same time a high level of government involvement. It would be sort of a libertarian-socialist position sometimes called "left-libertarian." The Libertarian Party in the U.S. is "right-libertarian" in that it favors less government involvement and a high level of personal freedom.

And then there are socialists who favor few personal freedoms and high levels of government involvement, perhaps similar to the former communist nations.

Here is a political test that places a person's views to one of the four quadrants: http://www.politicalcompass.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To go directly to the test here: http://www.politicalcompass.org/test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Take a look at the graph and analysis below and you can see that it is possible that one could be for high government involvement but still support personal freedoms (bottom left quadrant).

Image

http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Kim OHara
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by Kim OHara »

mindfullmom wrote:Thank you Kim.

I did actually read that first and I have just re-read it and the first few pages of the discussion and no one has put forth the question, do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom?

Jason would like to see us move further into a socialist type of economic system. Jason would like to see more government involvement in the form of more programs like universal health care. More government programs requires more money from the taxpayer. ...
Without disagreeing with retro or David, I will suggest another useful approach - looking at the societies which produce the greatest well-being and happiness for their citizens rather than merely the most money. I have forgotten the details (Googling 'Affluenza' should get you some useful results), but basically the countries that do best on this index are centre-left by European standards (radical left by US standards :tongue: ) and include the Scandinavian countries. 'Social welfare' programmes (health, education, pensions) make up a big part of their spending and taxes are relatively high to pay for them. They are not, of course, Buddhist-inspired but they are compassion-inspired, and that is a great first step.

:namaste:
Kim
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Kim OHara
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by Kim OHara »

David N. Snyder wrote: Here is a political test that places a person's views to one of the four quadrants: http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Their quiz is a good one: http://www.politicalcompass.org/iconochasms
:reading:
:jawdrop:

Kim
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by danieLion »

mindfullmom wrote:Daniel, I'm getting the feeling you would rather not answer this one and that's okay. It's just a question, I'm not baiting you.
That doesn't sound like a feeling I'd trust.

I'm trying to help you rephrase or re-frame the question(s), or make better questions. I wouldn't trust your suspicion that I feel baited either. If there's actually something substantive involved with your question making and asking, I'd like to see it uncovered.
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danieLion
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
mindfullmom wrote:Thank you Kim.

I did actually read that first and I have just re-read it and the first few pages of the discussion and no one has put forth the question, do you think that more government involvement limits our personal freedom?

Jason would like to see us move further into a socialist type of economic system. Jason would like to see more government involvement in the form of more programs like universal health care. More government programs requires more money from the taxpayer. ...
Without disagreeing with retro or David, I will suggest another useful approach - looking at the societies which produce the greatest well-being and happiness for their citizens rather than merely the most money. I have forgotten the details (Googling 'Affluenza' should get you some useful results), but basically the countries that do best on this index are centre-left by European standards (radical left by US standards :tongue: ) and include the Scandinavian countries. 'Social welfare' programmes (health, education, pensions) make up a big part of their spending and taxes are relatively high to pay for them. They are not, of course, Buddhist-inspired but they are compassion-inspired, and that is a great first step.

:namaste:
Kim
See Walden II, by B.F. SKinner.
danieLion
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by danieLion »

David N. Snyder wrote:
mindfullmom wrote:

Image

http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is just a new spin on old misunderstandings of moral-political philosophies and doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of actual moral-political philosophy and it's concurrent history.

David (and Retro),
Isaiah Berlin's The Four Freedoms/Liberties is a good place to start informing yourself about "freedom" in addition to the books previously mentioned (Nozick, Sandel, Rawls). You should also avail yourself of Habermas' work on freedom and democracy.
D :heart:
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DL,

Nah, I'll just settle for nirodha as an understanding of freedom.

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Kim OHara
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by Kim OHara »

danieLion wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Without disagreeing with retro or David, I will suggest another useful approach - looking at the societies which produce the greatest well-being and happiness for their citizens rather than merely the most money. I have forgotten the details (Googling 'Affluenza' should get you some useful results), but basically the countries that do best on this index are centre-left by European standards (radical left by US standards :tongue: ) and include the Scandinavian countries. 'Social welfare' programmes (health, education, pensions) make up a big part of their spending and taxes are relatively high to pay for them. They are not, of course, Buddhist-inspired but they are compassion-inspired, and that is a great first step.

:namaste:
Kim
See Walden II, by B.F. SKinner.
*Why* see Walden II, DanieLion?
I don't know the book, although I know about about Skinner, so I looked it up (http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/walden2/summary.html) and I can't see any useful connection between what I mentioned and what you mentioned.
:namaste:
Kim
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
retrofuturist wrote:....despite what many neo-classical economists will tell you - there are many other factors, most less tangible and less material - funny enough, just like human experience.
Further to that...

Economics is lost – it must rediscover life's values - Victoria Chick
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... schumacher" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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cooran
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by cooran »

Thanks Retro.
Agree.

‘’…..But it is the Occupy movement that goes furthest, for, however varied its demands have been, its underlying rebellion is against the untrammelled self-interest that has brought us to this pass. What we have is not only an economic crisis but also, much deeper, a clash of values. A sense of the greater good appears to have survived and is at last making itself heard.’’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... schumacher" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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rowboat
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Re: The Buddha and Occupy Wall Street

Post by rowboat »

cooran wrote:Thanks Retro.
Agree.

‘’…..But it is the Occupy movement that goes furthest, for, however varied its demands have been, its underlying rebellion is against the untrammelled self-interest that has brought us to this pass. What we have is not only an economic crisis but also, much deeper, a clash of values. A sense of the greater good appears to have survived and is at last making itself heard.’’
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... schumacher" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Indeed.

In Capitalism Hits the Fan academic Richard Wolff gives a most cogent assessment of the present crisis.



Chris Hedges talking about "interverted totalitarianism" and the work of Sheldon Wolin, whose book Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism I was introduced to in an interview with Bhikkhu Bodhi. It was one of the books Bhikkhu Bodhi was currently reading.

Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
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