Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:It is a matter trying to find common ground in trying to understand and work with other cultures whose response to things can be quite different than Western cultures.
I don't know where all Dhamma Wheel members live, but I know at least three participants in this topic to date who live in Asia...
Oh, well. You still do not quite get it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:This incessant nation/culture/etc. talk is precisely the problem.
I totally agree. I don't see why it keeps getting raised. Since I spent some time living in Asia speaking almost exclusively English so for me to complain, for example, that Thai people speak Thai in their Wats would be hypocritical... It's just something one has to deal with, not some nationalistic conspiracy on the part of the Thai Sangha...

:anjali:
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:some nationalistic conspiracy on the part of the Thai Sangha...
...this was never claimed, or even obliquely mentioned. Do you perceive this to be a claim made somewhere in this thread, or by offline others in connection with this topic?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:some nationalistic conspiracy on the part of the Thai Sangha...
...this was never claimed, or even obliquely mentioned. Do you perceive this to be a claim made somewhere in this thread, or by offline others in connection with this topic?
OK, perhaps I misunderstand the reason for quoting for example:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 26#p159182" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gombrich wrote:Rather than teaching Buddhism to the indigenous people of their host countries, they mainly run cultural centres for the Buddhist immigrants from their countries of origin, centres which indeed operate largely in Sinhalese, Burmese, Thai, etc., not in the language of the country where the missions operate. To run such a centre is not in itself an unworthy thing to do: in the modern world most countries regard providing cultural attachés and consular services as part of their diplomatic mission. But if this is the main and central activity of the mission, it points to an extremely serious underlying weakness in the Theravāda Buddhism we find in the world today: its parochial nationalism.
And http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p159361" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
daverupa wrote:I think this speech trumps The Broken Buddha by couching the key problem - parochial nationalism - amidst very important modern ethical and moral issues (women, bhikkhunis, political murder, war, etc.).
If I've misunderstood,then I am pleased, since I don't see people using their own language and organising their institutions in their own way either particularly surprising or evidence of "parochial nationalism".

:anjali:
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:I don't see people using their own language and organising their institutions in their own way either particularly surprising or evidence of "parochial nationalism".
And yet:
mikenz66 wrote:That there is parochial nationalism is undeniable. But, to me, Thai people are parochial nationalists in much the same way as people in most countries are. They have their country and their culture and they are proud of it.
Despite an apparent about-face, your focus seems to be on the immigrant temple environment. Very well.

The criticism here was that cultural performance and continuity were inappropriate as primary functions of Buddhist temples. That these temples perform these functions was not described as a problem in and of itself; the problem is that a Thai Buddhist temple (to use one nation as an example) is Thai first and Buddhist second.

Indeed, Thai ritual behavior (extra cloth so monks can receive gifts from women, for example) is touted as fulfilling Buddhist principles, which is simply false as there is no Vinaya precedent for this misogyny. The prevention of female ordination is another such issue that results from this culture-first attitude - i.e. parochial nationalism. (Need we remind ourselves of the WPP fiasco over bhikkuni ordinations in Australia?) Furthermore, these are only some of the problems addressed in the article.

Do you still insist that your local anecdote somehow allays these institutionalized deficiencies?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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retrofuturist
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:I conveyed a similar idea earlier, but notice how "impose" and "shortcomings" have made an appearance as part of the argument, when this way of engaging with the topic was never introduced except by those arguing against it.

It seems people see the Gombrich piece as challenging the way ASIAN CULTURE does things; but that's a red herring. It's challenging the way THERAVADAN BUDDHISTS have historically, and up to today, done things. That they have been mostly enmeshed in an Asian culture is purely incidental, and by speaking about these things I do so with Western biases, but as a Buddhist. This is the playing field within which we should communicate, not some culture or emergent tradition.

This incessant nation/culture/etc. talk is precisely the problem.
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by chownah »

retrofuturist wrote: The "chownah" culture whose first response was to take umbrage at the English imperialists?
............
...........
What we do have in common though is our common Buddhist heritage -
I can see why you are calling this my culture....but really I think you are mistaken. I do not take umbrage at Englis imperialists. I think your comment was meant to describe thoughts of western imperialism as being a journey into fantasy. It is easy for people living within the realms of imperialist powers to discount the effects of imperialism....after all the imperialist actions taken by those powers is and has been external so it is not felt by those internal. The bulk of Asia is a different matter entirely. Think of a map of Asia and then think Pakistan+India+Bangladesh+Burma+Hong Kong+Macau+Singapore+Malaysia+Who Have I Forgotten=Ruled by Great Britain not so long ago.....then think Laos+Cambodia+Vietnam=Ruled by France not so long ago....then think Phillipine Islands=Ruled by Spain not so long ago....then think Virtually all of East Asia=Conquered by Japan not so long ago.......Imperialism has been the history of Asia....Imperialism has left a deep mark in all of the cultures of Asia.....violence as a result of imperialist actions is still playing out today on the border of Thailand and Cambodia where the French established their own border when they stole vast territiories from what was then part of Thailand...this territorial grab was resulted in a border which arbitrarily assigned owership of land with no regard for the cultures of the people who lived across that border....people are still dieing form it today. Even beyond this....go to the individual level....Thailand is full of foreigners who want to tell Thai people how to run their lives....from Christian missionaries to foreign businesses to expats who want to teach Thais the error of their ways and to show them the right way to build a house, to raise rice, to husband animals, to organize their society, how to practice their Buddhism....and goodness knows that everywhere in the world there is a need to improve on these things but Thai people see westerners approaches to these things as being arrogance...and from what I have seen in some/many/most situations of this kind they are correct. Thais want to maintain their cultural identity......and there are alot of wonderful things in Thai culture....things that westerners would benefit to learn....there are also some not so wonderful things...things that westerners would benefit to learn from....

You say what we have in common is our common Buddhist heritage. You are wrong. We do not have a common Buddhist heritage culture....it is shear fantasy to think that Buddhists throughout the world have a common Buddhist heritage culture....Buddists can't even agree on some of the most fundamental points of doctrine.....and clearly it all diverges from there....there is no common Buddhist heritage.

chownah
P.S. Think Vietnam+Laos+Cambodia=Bombed by the United States of America not so long ago.....I try to be an equal opportunity finger pointer....sorry for this serious omission above.
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by chownah »

Thai ritual behavior (extra cloth so monks can receive gifts from women, for example) is touted as fulfilling Buddhist principles, which is simply false as there is no Vinaya precedent for this misogyny.
This practice, while being ridiculous, is not carried out with misogyny...at least not from anything I have seen. But then I have only observed a very small number of monks and how they interact with women.....if you have some evidence of misogyny in the Thai monkhood then please bring it forward....I think this is really a very serous charge you are making and that it is groundless....have you had and face to face dealings with Thai monks?
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:I think your comment was meant to describe thoughts of western imperialism as being a journey into fantasy.
Actually, it was only meant to demonstrate that there is no single homogenized "Asian culture" we are dealing with. The small sample of three (and the difference in your thoughts on the subject vis-a-vis pilgrim & ven. Appicchato) was sufficient to show that. As I have said though, this is about Theravada Buddhism... and having it framed it as a supposed attack on "Asian culture" by "Western culture" is quite unfortunate, and is a complete red herring, as Daverupa pointed out above.

In another recent topic - http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10445" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - pilgrim anecdoctally observes a decline in the Theravada bhikkhu population in traditional Theravada countries over recent decades, so if Theravada Buddhism is facing a challenge in maintaining relevance in the face of modernity, then this is a relevant concern to Theravada Buddhists without anyone even mentioning the "Western" bogey man.
chownah wrote:You say what we have in common is our common Buddhist heritage. You are wrong. We do not have a common Buddhist heritage culture....it is shear fantasy to think that Buddhists throughout the world have a common Buddhist heritage culture....Buddists can't even agree on some of the most fundamental points of doctrine.....and clearly it all diverges from there....there is no common Buddhist heritage.
If all there is is refuge in the Triple Gem - then that is a start. If there is not even that, Theravada Buddhism may as well pack up and go home.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
chownah
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by chownah »

It seems people see the Gombrich piece as challenging the way ASIAN CULTURE does things; but that's a red herring. It's challenging the way THERAVADAN BUDDHISTS have historically, and up to today, done things.
You are exactly correct....he is challenging the way Theravadan Budhists are doing things....this approach seems to have unfortunately left him blind to the multiplicity of Theravadan Buddhist Heritages (note, plural, "heritages") as he seems to think his own Theravadan Buddhist Heritage which seems to include a healthy dolop of proslytization is superior to theirs....like Lord of the Rings: One Theravadan Buoddhist Heritage to rule them all!!!!
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:multiplicity of Theravadan Buddhist Heritages (note, plural, "heritages")
... or "diversity within the Theravada Buddhist heritage"?

To me, there is a big difference between the two - the former leads to factionalism and exclusion, the latter to tolerance and inclusion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by daverupa »

chownah wrote:This practice, while being ridiculous, is not carried out with misogyny...at least not from anything I have seen. But then I have only observed a very small number of monks and how they interact with women.....if you have some evidence of misogyny in the Thai monkhood then please bring it forward....I think this is really a very serous charge you are making and that it is groundless....have you had and face to face dealings with Thai monks?
chownah
Richard Gombrich wrote:We are therefore dealing not just with a misguided ritual obsession but with true misogyny, a horror and dread of women, a fear that the slightest contact with a female is seductive and may inspire lust.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by alan »

Asians are no longer leading the way. From what I've read, and experienced, they gave up that prerogative long ago. It's up to us now, and the most important thing is to establish a baseline. I'm with Retro, who, a few pages back before this thread degenerated into pointless bickering, suggested that we take the Buddha at his word and follow the suttas.
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Asians are no longer leading the way. From what I've read, and experienced, they gave up that prerogative long ago.
Who did? And you base this upon what assessment?
t's up to us now, and the most important thing is to establish a baseline.
Us? And who is this "us"? And who determines what the supposed baseline is based upon what?
I'm with Retro, who, a few pages back before this thread degenerated into pointless bickering, suggested that we take the Buddha at his word and follow the suttas.
Which, of course, are embedded with a cultural matrix, and for most "us" we have to rely on translations, which require the translator to have have, themselves, dealt with the contexts of these texts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?

Post by manas »

Richard Gombrich wrote:We are therefore dealing not just with a misguided ritual obsession but with true misogyny, a horror and dread of women, a fear that the slightest contact with a female is seductive and may inspire lust.
By him making this extreme statement, I feel justified in wondering whether Gombrich has any idea of how challenging it is to practice strict, long-term celibacy (for a normal male). We don't have the Buddha, or nearly as many Arahants around nowdays, to support our practice of strict brahmacariya (for those men who choose it). If monks have found a little extra way to safeguard their minds from lust arising, then why not? If Bhikkhunis requested the same procedure regarding offerings from male laymen, would we object, calling it 'misandry'? I think not!

I know this diverges a little from what people are currently talking about, but I add it because it shows once again how we need to be careful when reading critiques of Buddhist monastic culture if they are written by a scholar rather than a practitioner, even when that scholar is sympathetic to Buddhism. There can be certain things they misconstrue, imo.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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