Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:You use the word "lineage" in your question, without defining it; when asked to define you refuse, which is a rather poor way of conducting a dialogue.
chownah wrote: You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is
We already have, and you refuse to accept it. This exchange is a waste of time.
tiltbillings,
Great, if you already have an idea about what a lineage of monks is then please apply it to the question and then if you find a reference where it indicates that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks or that anyone in the Pali texts said that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks then please bring it here and post it.....I'm glad to see that we have cleared the first hurdle and you now know that you can use your own idea about "lineage of monks" in answering the question......so now I'm hoping that you will go find a reference and bring it here and name the name......but I certainly don't want you to waste your time....I'm reasonably certain that you will not find it......seems like if it was there that someone would have produced it........
chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:43 am

I am not wasting any more time with this thread. It just reads as if you are playing games with us. Don't need that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by daverupa » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:22 pm

chownah wrote:I do not intend to read the entirety of the Mahavagga in search of the answer
Oh I see.

:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:12 pm

Since no one has provided a reference to show that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a linage of monks nor has a reference been provided to show that someone with a name (or even without a name) has claimed that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage I would like to widen the search to include the question, "Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?" In other words did the Buddha ever acknowledge that he himself was the initiator of a lineage of monks?

Some people are probably wondering why I keep widening the question. I do this because since no references have been produced so far to support a "yes" answer, I am left with the unsatisfactory "no" possibility. The "no" possiblity is unsatisfactory because it can never be completely accepted...it simply means that SO FAR no one has provided the reference which proves the "yes"alternative.........so........I'm looking for Pali references to support three questions: 1. Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. 2. Did anyone in the Pali texts assert that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks (hopefully someone with a name). and 3. "Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?"

chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:33 pm

chownah wrote:Since no one has provided a reference to show that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a linage of monks nor has a reference been provided to show that someone with a name (or even without a name) has claimed that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage
Only according to you and you unstated definition of lineage. Using the monastic rules themselves as to what does and does not constitute an ordination, the issue has been resolved for those who take the Vinaya as the basis for what a monastic lineage is according to the Vinaya. The rest of your discussion: waste of time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by daverupa » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:36 pm

3. Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?
He gave ordination to Kondanna, per the Mahavagga. Is this the beginning of a lineage, as you understand that term? Because we need that question addressed before we can proceed to (1.) and (2.).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:26 pm

daverupa wrote:
3. Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?
He gave ordination to Kondanna, per the Mahavagga. Is this the beginning of a lineage, as you understand that term? Because we need that question addressed before we can proceed to (1.) and (2.).
daverupa,
My question is did the Buddha say that he was beginning a lineage of monks? I think not....I think he just said "come here monk". So unless the Buddha said something on the order of "now I'm going to start a lineage of monks"...or..."you Kondanna are the first in a lineage of monks"...or...later did he say "having established a lineage of monks"....or anything else where the Buddha speaks of his involvement in establishing a lineage of monks in either the past, present, or future.....I'm not wanting to widen my question any more at this time since even trying to keep it focused very tightly it seems that people have a hard time following along and if the question gets too broad then I fear total pandemonium will break out....but inspite of wanting to stay focused on the three questions let me put out that something to ponder at this point is whether the Buddha ever in any way referred to the concept of lineage in relation to monks.....now watch and see what happens.....
chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:49 pm

chownah wrote: people have a hard time following along and if the question gets too broad then I fear total pandemonium will break out.
Serously? The problem of this thread come from you and your game playing, which has been to simply refuse to define the key element of your question, the word "lineage." And then you refuse to accept anyone else's answer because it ibviously do not meet with your definition. You have been asked directly what it is that you are looking for here, and you refuse to answer.
...but inspite of wanting to stay focused on the three questions let me put out that something to ponder at this point is whether the Buddha ever in any way referred to the concept of lineage in relation to monks.....now watch and see what happens.....
chownah
Again, you have introduced "lineage" here; so, what do mean by it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Gena1480
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by Gena1480 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:08 am

i think lineage of monks
means setting up rules
for ordination of monks
since Buddha set them up
then no one can break them, regarding the Buddha, Sangha, and Dhamma
as for lineage of monks
for different teachings
any teacher can establish them
but that would not be regarding Buddha ,Sangha and Dhamma
metta

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:12 am

Gena1480 wrote:i think lineage of monks
means setting up rules
for ordination of monks
since Buddha set them up
then no one can break them, regarding the Buddha, Sangha, and Dhamma
as for lineage of monks
for different teachings
any teacher can establish them
but that would not be regarding Buddha ,Sangha and Dhamma
metta
Gena1480,
Thank you for your reply and telling us what your idea about what a lineage of monks is.....since your idea is that it means setting up rules for ordination of monks then do you think that the Buddha ever said that only he could make those rules? I think that all of the rules for ordination that are in the Pali texts were made by the Buddha and no no one else.... but is there anywhere that it says that it absolutely must be that way? Did the Buddha ever say something like, "no one but me can make the rules?"........I would like to know your ideas on this and also if you can find a reference which talks about this that would be nice too.....
chownah

cittaanurakkho
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by cittaanurakkho » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:35 pm

Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?

Assuming "teach" as dhamma vinnaya, then let's consider two scenarios:
1. Suppose there is no monks left in the world today to perform ordination or there is an insufficient quorum of monks. In this case, there is no alternative procedure or even an exception in the Vinaya to initiate a lineage, which is another words of saying that the Buddha did not established a procedure to restart his lineage once the members falls below a limit (5). Thus the Buddha asserted that he is the only one that could initiate his lineage in this eon. Untill Maetreya come along to established Meatreya lineage.

2. Suppose there are many Mahayana monks in the world today and only 4 Theravadins monks left in the world. I don't think the Vinaya prohibit the Theravadins monk from borrowing one Mahayana monk to perform Theravadin ordination. But this scenario is riddle with a paradox. If the 4 Theravadins consider themself as a distinct lineage from the Mahayana, then technically they are re-initialing Theravadins lineage with the help of a Mahayana monk. Thus re-initiating the lineage without the Buddha. Yet, having asked the Mahayana monk for help, can the Theravadins really consider themself a distinct lineage seperate from the Mahayana? So what is a lineage?

For this reason, I think the original question only make sense with scenario #1. For other scenario (including the state of Buddhism in the world today), it is an improperly frame question. Consider the fact that for all of his 40 years of ministry, the Buddha tried hard, formulated rules to prevent the breaks up of his lineage into various factions. So, why would he formulate a rule regarding initialing a lineage of monks when there were only one lineage when he is still alive. And usually he formulated a rule adhock: only when there is an incident.

Perhaps some rules are best left unformulated.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:57 pm

cittaanurakkho wrote: 2. Suppose there are many Mahayana monks in the world today and only 4 Theravadins monks left in the world..
There is no Mahayana Vinaya. There are two surviviving Vinaya lineages outside of the Theravada, the Mula-Sarvastivadins and the Dhamaguptas. All three of these stem from, and reasonably claim to be, rooted in the order of monastics started by the Buddha, following the same rules of transmission.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:57 am

cittaanurakkho wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?

Assuming "teach" as dhamma vinnaya, then let's consider two scenarios:
1. Suppose there is no monks left in the world today to perform ordination or there is an insufficient quorum of monks. In this case, there is no alternative procedure or even an exception in the Vinaya to initiate a lineage, which is another words of saying that the Buddha did not established a procedure to restart his lineage once the members falls below a limit (5). Thus the Buddha asserted that he is the only one that could initiate his lineage in this eon. Untill Maetreya come along to established Meatreya lineage.

2. Suppose there are many Mahayana monks in the world today and only 4 Theravadins monks left in the world. I don't think the Vinaya prohibit the Theravadins monk from borrowing one Mahayana monk to perform Theravadin ordination. But this scenario is riddle with a paradox. If the 4 Theravadins consider themself as a distinct lineage from the Mahayana, then technically they are re-initialing Theravadins lineage with the help of a Mahayana monk. Thus re-initiating the lineage without the Buddha. Yet, having asked the Mahayana monk for help, can the Theravadins really consider themself a distinct lineage seperate from the Mahayana? So what is a lineage?

For this reason, I think the original question only make sense with scenario #1. For other scenario (including the state of Buddhism in the world today), it is an improperly frame question. Consider the fact that for all of his 40 years of ministry, the Buddha tried hard, formulated rules to prevent the breaks up of his lineage into various factions. So, why would he formulate a rule regarding initialing a lineage of monks when there were only one lineage when he is still alive. And usually he formulated a rule adhock: only when there is an incident.

Perhaps some rules are best left unformulated.
cittaanurakkho,
Thank you for your reply and giving your views here. I see that you are repying to the first of the three questions I have asked....you are replying to, "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"

I like what you have said and want to give a summary of it to be sure that I understand what you are saying. I think you are saying that although the Buddha did not declare that only he could start a lineage that actually in essence by giving rules so that if the number of monks fell below 5 then there was no way to continue or to restart his lineage he did in effect create a situation where only he could initiate his lineage. I think this is an interesting idea....but you are only applying it to HIS lineage.....this says nothing about someone else initiating a lineage....so I guess that you are saying is that in a certain sense your view is that the Buddha defined the ordination of monks so that only he could initiate HIS lineage. I think this is something worth thinking about. I'm wondering in what sense this thing called "lineage" can be thought of as being "his".....also...at the end of section #2 of your post you ask "So what is a lineage?" and I think that everyone has some vague ideas about what this means and perhaps some clearly understood ideas too and your post as well as the others is giving me a better understanding of what it means.......I think....

Also, you say that there is no reason why the Buddha would formulate a rule that only he could initiate his lineage in that he only made rules on an adhoc basis and the need never arose during his life....I think this is a good observation but there is a danger in this....taking this logic to further extents one could say that the Buddha did not make a rule against monks using the internet because the situation never arose in his lifetime and by saying that someone might be implying that monks should not use the internet......in other words it is of questionable value to try to assign an intent for not doing something....I know that you made no assertion of intent in the Buddha's non-formulation of a rule but I'm just wanting to show how someone might misconstrue this sort of thing.

And finally, I'm wondering what you think about the third question I asked, ""Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?" The point of this question is that I have not been able to find anywhere that the concept of "lineage"was ever used by the Buddha in regards to monks. I am actively trying to find out if the Buddha taught any ideas that could help us understand how he would answer the question, "So what is a lineage? "

chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:27 am

chownah wrote:. . .
You are given carefully considered and informed answers (far more informed than the question) and you are just unreasonably blowing them off. And you have yet to define the key term in your question: lineage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:59 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:. . .
You are given carefully considered and informed answers (far more informed than the question) and you are just unreasonably blowing them off. And you have yet to define the key term in your question: lineage.
On the contrary.....I am not "blowing them off" as you say.....I think that good ideas are being presented and I am glad to have them expressed and I have (I think) been helped by all the posts here in my pursuit of a better understanding of the questions I have presented.....I appreciate and accept what people have posted....if I think they are addressing related questions and have strayed from the main focus of this thread then I explain my thinking on that...I still value what they said and am glad that they have taken the time to say it....I'm hoping that more people will post about their ideas on these questions so that I may develop a better understanding of what the Buddha taught as revealed through the study of these issues on lineage. For instance, don't you think that it is remarkable that both Gena1480 and cittaanurakkho have talked about rules of ordination and that while their approaches are different they also have alot in common....I certainly am not wanting to "blow off" their observations and I'm glad that they presented them......don't you see the value in this?....for me it is very informative and even if I do think that they have strayed somewhat from the exact focus of the thread i think that they have helped in shedding light on what I'm looking for.
chownah

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