Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
appicchato wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...
:goodpost:

It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.
One could start a lineage, whatever that might mean, but if it has no connexion with an intact Vinaya lineage, following the established rules of ordination, it is simply something started by some person having no connexion to the ordination lineage started by the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:01 am

Greetings,

There are different Buddhist lineages in existence today... surely the Buddha did not personally instigate them all?

In which case the answer to Chownah's question would (once more) seem like a "no".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There are different Buddhist lineages in existence today... surely the Buddha did not personally instigate them all?

In which case the answer to Chownah's question would (once more) seem like a "no".

Metta,
Retro. :)
All the extant Vinaya lineages derive from the initial ordination lineage started by the Buddha. Now there are non-Vinaya ordination lineages in Japan that arose after monasticism was dismantled by the government. While I have no problem with according members of these lineages due respect, they are not Vinaya lineages.

The answer to Chownah's question is: Like so much in Buddhism, it depends. By definition a Vinaya lineage cannot be started without connexion to an ongoing Vinaya lineage, in accordance to the established rules. Within the Theravada Sangha in Sri Lanka and Thailand there are sub-groups of ordination lineages. These were started with a connexion to an already established Vinaya lineages according to the ordination rules. One cannot start an Vinaya ordination lineage without that connexion.

The Japanese non-Vinaya ordination lineages were statred without that connexion.

Now, one can start an organization such as the Retrofuturist Sangha Shop Boys or the FWBO, with whatever rules and practices ones might want, but it is not a Vinaya lineage, and would have no right to claim it was.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:

The answer to Chownah's question is: Like so much in Buddhism, it depends.
I agree with this completely. Since my question is, "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?" it clearly depends on whether there is some Pali text where the Buddha teaches that only he can create a lineage of monks. You and others have posted some information which I have sincerely found to be very interesting information and perhaps I will want to pursue a better understanding of it by starting another topic or two or three for the purpose of discussing those interesting things but for this topic I'm really wanting things to stay pretty much on the question of whether there is a Pali text which shows that the Buddha taught that only he could start a lineage of monks....since so far no one has been able to provide a reference to address that question I have also broadened this question somewhat to include any Pali reference where anyone says that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks....but so far no one has brought a reference which indicates that either...so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks.....but I'm still asking for anyone to please search the Pali and find such a reference...I've looked around a bit and so far have found nothing but I'm not nearly as experienced in Pali references as many people here and also I only have a modem in northern Thailand so you can imaging that my searches are sometimes a bit tedious....

chownah

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by daverupa » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:19 pm

It's all in the Mahavagga.
And the venerable Aññâtakondañña, having seen the Truth, having mastered the Truth, having understood the Truth, having penetrated the Truth, having overcome uncertainty, having dispelled all doubts, having gained full knowledge, dependent on nobody else for knowledge of the doctrine of the Teacher, thus spoke to the Blessed One: 'Lord, let me receive the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations from the Blessed One.'

'Come, O Bhikkhu,' said the Blessed One, 'well taught is the doctrine; lead a holy life for the sake of the complete extinction of suffering.' Thus this venerable person received the upasampadâ ordination
followed by
'I grant you, O Bhikkhus, this permission: Confer henceforth in the different regions and in the different countries the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations yourselves (on those who desire to receive them). And you ought, O Bhikkhus, to confer the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations in this way: Let him (who desires to receive the ordination), first have his hair and beard cut off; let him put on yellow robes, adjust his upper robe so as to cover one shoulder, salute the feet of the Bhikkhus (with his head), and sit down squatting; then let him raise his joined hands and tell him to say:

'"I take my refuge in the Buddha, I take my refuge in the Dhamma, I take my refuge in the Samgha. And for the second time I take (&c. . . . . Samgha). And for the third time I take my refuge in the Buddha, and for the third time I take my refuge in the Dhamma, and for the third time I take my refuge in the Samgha."

'I prescribe, a Bhikkhus, the pabbaggâ and upasampadâ ordinations consisting in the three times repeated declaration of taking refuge (in the holy triad).'
followed by
'I prescribe, O Bhikkhus, (that young Bhikkhus choose) an upagghâya (or preceptor).
and so on.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:39 pm

chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.
tiltbillings,
I'm not sure if you understand the question. I originally asked, "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?" , and later (because no one provided a reference to confirm that the Buddha did teach this) I broadened the question to include, "any Pali reference where anyone says that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks.".....and now you ask me to "Show us an instance where it has happened. " Are you asking me to show you where it has been written that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?....I can not do this.....I have said that I have been unable to locate such a reference for this or the broader question....I am asking if anyone can provide such a reference. So far no one has been able to provide a reference which supports that idea that the Buddha claimed or that anyone claimed that only the Buddha could start a lineage of monks.......and with every post which does not provide a reference I am becoming more confident that in fact the Buddha nor anyone else mentioned in the Pali texts declared that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks.

If anyone can provide such a reference please do so....I appreciate all of the replies here even though none of them has provided a reference to the point....there are many interesting comments being made and I am glad that they have been mentioned although I am a bit surprised that so many people seem to be having such a difficult time staying focused on the exact question I am asking.

chownah

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:09 am

daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...
daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question and since no one here has provided the answer I'm reasonably sure that the Mahavagga does not hold the answer because I think that there are many people here who are familiar with the Mahavagga and would have responded with the necessary reference if it in fact was found there.....but maybe people have overlooked the Mahavagga and you having mentioned it here will prompt them to take another look at it and see if the reference is there.....I do not intend to read the entirety of the Mahavagga in search of the answer...I'll hopefully have some time to do some selective searching and reading to see what I can find....but please tell me do you think that the Mahavagga contains a passage that will indicate that the Buddha or anyone else declares that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks?...my opinion is that if it was there you would have found it already.....
chownah

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:32 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.
Are you asking me to show you where it has been written that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?....
I do understand the question. You have not understand the answers. I'll repeat: the ordination lineage was set up by the Buddha and it follows a certain guideline for the ordination to be considered valid. Guidelines not followed, no valid ordination.

Now, the question I asked and you seemed have ignored (or I missed it) is: what do you mean by "a lineage of monks"?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:08 am

tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:14 am

chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah
If you are not willing to define the term "lineage," which you have made central to this question, then the question becomes meanigless, and apparently, as we have seen, I would not be the only one to say so..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:44 am

chownah wrote:
daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...
daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question
It seems to me that you're being deliberately obtuse, as that does answer the question as I see it. The Vinaya also makes it clear that living as a bhikkhu without taking ordination is "communion by theft" — such a person should be expelled, is not ordained, and cannot be ordained afterwards.

What do you mean by a lineage of monks, and why does it matter? What is your secret agenda here?
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chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:07 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
chownah wrote:
daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...
daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question
It seems to me that you're being deliberately obtuse, as that does answer the question as I see it. The Vinaya also makes it clear that living as a bhikkhu without taking ordination is "communion by theft" — such a person should be expelled, is not ordained, and cannot be ordained afterwards.

What do you mean by a lineage of monks, and why does it matter? What is your secret agenda here?
Bhikkhu Pesala,
If you think that somewhere in the Mahavagga there is an excerpt where it indicates that the Buddha teaches that only he can initiate a lineage of monks then please post it here. The excepts that daverupa posted certainly do not contain that. Or, if you think that somewhere in teh Mahavagga there is an excerpt where it indicates that anyone indicates that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks then please post it here....the excerpt that daverupa posted certainly does not contain that.

If you think that the answer has been given then give me the name of the person who says that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks? I'm asking for names and references.

You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is....then bring the reference here and we all can study it and determine for ourselves if it is what we individually think of as being a ilneage of monks.
You ask why does it matter....then I guess to you it doesn't matter what a lineage of monks is so I guess this entire topic is of little to no importance to you.
You ask what is my secret agenda....my secret agenda is trying to learn about what the Buddha taught......I hope you will help me keep my secret. What is your secret agenda in your replying to my posts?

chownah

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:13 am

You use the word "lineage" in your question, without defining it; when asked to define you refuse, which is a rather poor way of conducting a dialogue.
chownah wrote: You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is
We already have, and you refuse to accept it. This exchange is a waste of time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah
If you are not willing to define the term "lineage," which you have made central to this question, then the question becomes meanigless, and apparently, as we have seen, I would not be the only one to say so..
tiltbillings,
I hope that this topic will help me and others to come to a better understanding about what the Buddha taught....I'm not trying to inject my personal opinion about what a lineage of monks is into the discussion because I am not trying to pursuade people about my existing views....what I'm trying to do is to learn something so for me it is BETTER if people use their own ideas about what a lineage of monks is in answering my questions....then I will not only get the answer to my question but in addition to that I will LEARN something about what a "lineage of monks" is....something new from outside my present experience so that I can get a better understanding of what the Buddha taught. It seem that your insistance on my giving my definition for "lineage of monks" is wanting to focus the topic onto my views and my personal self which I view as being a movement towards indulging in a doctrine of self and I really will do all I can to resist that.

chownah

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