Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
Lineage of monks
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Lineage of monks
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Lineage of monks
Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.tiltbillings wrote:All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
chownah
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Lineage of monks
Not directly, but the point is that a lineage of monks started independently of the established Vinaya lineages would not be recognized as Vinaya monks or nuns.chownah wrote:Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.tiltbillings wrote:All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
chownah
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Lineage of monks
Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?
But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
chownah
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?
But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
chownah
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Lineage of monks
I thought I answered that. For someone else who has not been ordained who tries to call himself a monk is regarded as a thief, I do believe that has been addressed somewhere in the Vinaya. So starting a new lineage of ordination is not regarded as legitimate. Likely somewhere will have a reference for that.chownah wrote:Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?
But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
chownah
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Lineage of monks
Lineage is Vamsa in Pali. I think any one taking an ordination would have a lineage. It is like a family tree. With Buddhist monks they would all have a common ancestor which would be the Buddha.
There are of course other lineages of monks such as Jaina and other Sramanera groups. They would be valid by their own criteria though.
So it is a bit of a strange question. I don't think the Buddha taught anyware that only he could initiate a lineage of monks.
Bankei
There are of course other lineages of monks such as Jaina and other Sramanera groups. They would be valid by their own criteria though.
So it is a bit of a strange question. I don't think the Buddha taught anyware that only he could initiate a lineage of monks.
Bankei
-----------------------
Bankei
Bankei
Re: Lineage of monks
Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks. It was my impression that he did not teach that and since no one has produced a reference I am even more firm in my belief that he did not teach that. If anyone has a reference indicating that the Buddha did teach this then please post it here.
Also, Is there any Pali reference anywhere stating by anyone that only the Buddha can start a lineage of monks?
chownah
Also, Is there any Pali reference anywhere stating by anyone that only the Buddha can start a lineage of monks?
chownah
Re: Lineage of monks
looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage
started a lineage
- Bhikkhu Pesala
- Posts: 4647
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm
Re: Lineage of monks
Since we are all called "Sakyaputta" and anyone who commits an offence of defeat is no longer a bhikkhu, no longer a "Sakyaputta" I think it should be blatantly obvious that we are all direct descendants of the Buddha.chownah wrote:Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks.
Any ordination without a full quorum of bhikkhus is not legally valid — in Middle India that means 10 bhikkhus, elsewhere it means five.
I really don't understand what your dilemma is or why you even care about this question.
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
Re: Lineage of monks
Bhikkhu Pesala,
Thanks for your response...I guess you are saying some things that you think are important but really they do not address my question. I know that you do not understand why I am asking this question but I want to tell you that I have no dilemma and really think that you must be making assumptions about me and it seems that your assumptions are inaccurate in that I have no dilemma; I'm just asking a question. So far no one has offered a Pali reference that addresses my question....and I guess you are not able to produce a Pali reference as well....if you can produce a Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage I ask you to please bring it here so I can read about it.....with each post that get's added to this thread I am becoming more certain that in fact there is no Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage....I'm not wanting to argue about this....I just want to find if such a reference exists and whether the Buddha taught that only he can start a lineage.
chownah
Thanks for your response...I guess you are saying some things that you think are important but really they do not address my question. I know that you do not understand why I am asking this question but I want to tell you that I have no dilemma and really think that you must be making assumptions about me and it seems that your assumptions are inaccurate in that I have no dilemma; I'm just asking a question. So far no one has offered a Pali reference that addresses my question....and I guess you are not able to produce a Pali reference as well....if you can produce a Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage I ask you to please bring it here so I can read about it.....with each post that get's added to this thread I am becoming more certain that in fact there is no Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage....I'm not wanting to argue about this....I just want to find if such a reference exists and whether the Buddha taught that only he can start a lineage.
chownah
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Lineage of monks
He did not start an ordination lineage.Gena1480 wrote:looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- appicchato
- Posts: 1602
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
- Location: Bridge on the River Kwae
Re: Lineage of monks
Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Lineage of monks
Explain what you mean by "start a lineage."chownah wrote:only the Buddha can start a lineage
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Lineage of monks
Greetings,
It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.
In other words, the onus would seem to be on those suggesting that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. I've never seen it.
In fact, I don't even recall the Buddha speaking of (different) lineages. Did he regarded the bhikkhunis as a separate "lineage".
Metta,
Retro.
appicchato wrote:Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.
In other words, the onus would seem to be on those suggesting that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. I've never seen it.
In fact, I don't even recall the Buddha speaking of (different) lineages. Did he regarded the bhikkhunis as a separate "lineage".
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."