Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
chownah
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Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:49 am

Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:56 am

chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.
Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:43 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
All the Buddhist Vinaya lineages would claim the that their lineages flow from the Buddha.
Thanks for the information....it doesn't seem to address my question though.
chownah
Not directly, but the point is that a lineage of monks started independently of the established Vinaya lineages would not be recognized as Vinaya monks or nuns.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:07 am

Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?

But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:17 am

chownah wrote:Actually the point is "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"
But I am interested in knowing what is the significance of the term Vinaya as applied to a lineage or to monks or nuns...do you have a reference for that?

But everyone....please does anyone know "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?"

chownah
I thought I answered that. For someone else who has not been ordained who tries to call himself a monk is regarded as a thief, I do believe that has been addressed somewhere in the Vinaya. So starting a new lineage of ordination is not regarded as legitimate. Likely somewhere will have a reference for that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Bankei
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by Bankei » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:52 am

Lineage is Vamsa in Pali. I think any one taking an ordination would have a lineage. It is like a family tree. With Buddhist monks they would all have a common ancestor which would be the Buddha.

There are of course other lineages of monks such as Jaina and other Sramanera groups. They would be valid by their own criteria though.

So it is a bit of a strange question. I don't think the Buddha taught anyware that only he could initiate a lineage of monks.

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chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:52 am

Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks. It was my impression that he did not teach that and since no one has produced a reference I am even more firm in my belief that he did not teach that. If anyone has a reference indicating that the Buddha did teach this then please post it here.

Also, Is there any Pali reference anywhere stating by anyone that only the Buddha can start a lineage of monks?
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by Gena1480 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:12 am

looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:54 am

chownah wrote:Well, so far no one has brought a reference where the Buddha teaches that only he can start a lineage of monks.
Since we are all called "Sakyaputta" and anyone who commits an offence of defeat is no longer a bhikkhu, no longer a "Sakyaputta" I think it should be blatantly obvious that we are all direct descendants of the Buddha.

Any ordination without a full quorum of bhikkhus is not legally valid — in Middle India that means 10 bhikkhus, elsewhere it means five.

I really don't understand what your dilemma is or why you even care about this question.
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chownah
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:18 am

Bhikkhu Pesala,
Thanks for your response...I guess you are saying some things that you think are important but really they do not address my question. I know that you do not understand why I am asking this question but I want to tell you that I have no dilemma and really think that you must be making assumptions about me and it seems that your assumptions are inaccurate in that I have no dilemma; I'm just asking a question. So far no one has offered a Pali reference that addresses my question....and I guess you are not able to produce a Pali reference as well....if you can produce a Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage I ask you to please bring it here so I can read about it.....with each post that get's added to this thread I am becoming more certain that in fact there is no Pali reference which indicates that only the Buddha can start a lineage....I'm not wanting to argue about this....I just want to find if such a reference exists and whether the Buddha taught that only he can start a lineage.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:30 am

Gena1480 wrote:looks like Venerable Ajaan Mun
started a lineage
He did not start an ordination lineage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by appicchato » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:56 am

chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...

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tiltbillings
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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:58 am

chownah wrote:only the Buddha can start a lineage
Explain what you mean by "start a lineage."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Lineage of monks

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:02 am

Greetings,
appicchato wrote:
chownah wrote:Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?
chownah
Looks to me (for someone knowledgable) like a yes, or no, question...I empathize with you Chownah...
:goodpost:

It would seem to be "no", unless evidence was brought forward to the contrary.

In other words, the onus would seem to be on those suggesting that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. I've never seen it.

In fact, I don't even recall the Buddha speaking of (different) lineages. Did he regarded the bhikkhunis as a separate "lineage".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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