the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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daverupa
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Re: No rebirth

Post by daverupa » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:31 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That is one way to dodge the question.
Mischaracterization, but thanks for playing.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:35 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is one way to dodge the question.
Mischaracterization, but thanks for playing.
It looks like dodging the question, it functions like dodging the question. As D. Adams said: If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: No rebirth

Post by daverupa » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:45 pm

:anjali:

As you like, tilt.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:51 pm

daverupa wrote::anjali:

As you like, tilt.
It is not what I like. You seem to want to pick and choose what suttas carry weight, and the ones to be dismissed are those that do not agree with your take on things, and when asked about it, you won't talk about your it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:31 pm

daverupa wrote:I like how the Suttas aren't guaranteed to be the direct words of the Buddha, except when they are...
Just to pick up on this, that is not a position I have taken.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: No rebirth

Post by Nyana » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:32 pm

Jhana4 wrote:I think the West, like Asia has some good changes to make ( and like Asia, some bad ones ). One of them would be in jettisoning rebirth, devas, multiple plains of existence, antiquate rules for monks/nuns, etc
Without these aspects it isn't the Buddha's dhammavinaya anymore. At best it's some sort of cognitive therapy rooted in a view of scientific materialism. And some of the most salient features of the dhammavinaya, such as the goal to be realized, and the ten fetters to be eliminated, become rather pointless in such a context.

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daverupa
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Re: No rebirth

Post by daverupa » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:I like how the Suttas aren't guaranteed to be the direct words of the Buddha, except when they are...
Just to pick up on this, that is not a position I have taken.
You weren't even quoted, tilt. It applies on both sides of this particular fence.

Amazing.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:44 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:I like how the Suttas aren't guaranteed to be the direct words of the Buddha, except when they are...
Just to pick up on this, that is not a position I have taken.
You weren't even quoted, tilt. It applies on both sides of this particular fence.

Amazing.
Thank you for clarifying your point, which probably should been done with your original post in question.

Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: No rebirth

Post by daverupa » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
There's a whole thread about this elsewhere, within which I've posted. You can look there for my particular response.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

farmer
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Re: No rebirth

Post by farmer » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:32 pm

.... jettisoning rebirth, devas, multiple plains of existence, antiquate rules for monks/nuns, etc
I'm not comfortable with everything I find in the Suttas, but I think we have to be very careful about picking and choosing. It is tempting to write rebirth off as an inessential part of the teaching, but that is not how the Buddha taught it. He taught that views are the foundation of the path, and that a belief in "this world and the next" is one of the key features of right view. Isn't it worth at least asking ourselves why he would teach that before discarding the teaching?

Our ordinary approach to views is to evaluate their correctness as an accurate description of the world. My impression is that the Buddha was much more concerned with the effects of views. We can't know whether we will be reborn, but it is easy to see that our views on the subject might affect how we practice. For example, imagine you have a week to live, and have to choose how to divide that time between practice and worldly pursuits. Would your beliefs about rebirth affect your choice?

I came to Buddhism with an annihilationist view, but I've been trying to entertain the possibility that my actions in the here and now may bear fruit beyond my lifetime. It isn't such a stretch, since there isn't any evidence to rule this sort of thing out. This is a watery version of "this world and the next," but it is enough to make a difference in my practice. In particular, I find myself much less anxious about what I will get out of the practice in this lifetime, and better able to maintain a steady, patient effort.

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:32 am

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
There's a whole thread about this elsewhere, within which I've posted. You can look there for my particular response.
I was asking you here in this context. As to the other thread, don't which one it is, so looking in it would be rather difficult.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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BlueLotus
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Re: No rebirth

Post by BlueLotus » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:03 am

tiltbillings wrote: Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this? :thinking:

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tiltbillings
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Re: No rebirth

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:08 am

BlueLotus wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Now, since that is established, how about addressing the question: So, what about the Buddha's claims of knowing the truth of rebirth?
Is it possible that the Buddha did not know about rebirth at all? If the Buddha knew rebirth, why did he not teach it more directly with more clarity like how it happens etc. so that people like us don't have to sit and debate like this? :thinking:
It looks clear to me. What I see a lot in this thread are those who cannot accept the Buddha taught rebirth because it flies in the face of what they can accept as being true and so they go through a lot of mental gymnastics to make their point (unconvincingly).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Zom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:11 am

Wow. 128 pages :reading: :spy: :rofl:




Here are my 5 cents:

There is a rebirth.


:D

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:04 am

Greetings,
Zom wrote:There is a rebirth.
... then there is no rebirth, then there is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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