One "citta" at a time

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Dinsdale
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:58 am

Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too.
What about paccaya though? Doesn't one moment arise in dependence on the previous one - in some sense?

P
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Anicca » Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:37 pm

Howdy Porpoise!
porpoise wrote:
Anicca wrote: Well, that same 'nothing' persists from one moment to the next in this life too.
What about paccaya though? Doesn't one moment arise in dependence on the previous one - in some sense?

P
Yes - excellent point.

I need to learn so much more - this is from here:
G. Patthana Pali (the Book of Causal Relationship)
Patthana forming the last book brings together all relationship in a coordinated form to show that the dhamma do not exist as isolated entities but they constitute a well ordered system in which the smallest unit conditions the rest of it and is also being conditioned in return.
The arrangement of the system is so very intricate, complex, highly thorough and complete that it earns for this treatise the reputation of being deep, profound and unfathomable.

It arranges all conditioned things ( 22 tika and 100 duka ) under twenty-four kinds of relations, describes and classifies them into a complete system for understanding the mechanics of the universe of dhamma.

The whole work is divided into four great divisions;

a. the studies of instances in which paccaya relations do exist between the dhammas.
b. the studies of instances in which paccaya relations do not exist between the dhammas.
c. the studies of instances in which some of the paccaya relations do exist between the dhammas
but the others do not.
d. the studies of instances in which some of the paccaya relations not do exist between the dhammas
but others do exist.


The 24 paccaya relations are applied to the four great divisions in six ways ;
a. in their 22 tika group
b. in their 100 duka group
c. in their 100 duka mixed with 22 tika groups
d. in their 22 tika mixed with 100 duka groups
e. in their 22 tika group mixed with one another
f. in their 100 duka group mixed with one another
Metta

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Soe Win Htut
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:36 am

I just share the relation between the truth of "one citta at a time" and the insight meditation(Vipassana) and utilization it upon insight meditation according to the teaching of Ven Ottamasara, a insight meditation teacher from Myanmar.

At below link, you can download it (ebook of Utilization of the truth one citta at a time in Vipassana meditation)
http://www.mediafire.com/?x078w45yh6maa6a
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Ben
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Ben » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:11 am

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Soe Win Htut
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:10 am

acinteyyo wrote:
My question is: What is the meaningn of "citta" according to Abhidhamma? Consciousness?

best wishes, acinteyyo
According to Abhidhamma, citta means "consciousness or mind". But "the citta or consciousness" in Abhidhamma is not as same as the consciousness that we are now understanding.

We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Because the time duration and the rate of vanishing of Citta (mind), cetasika (metal factors), and Rupa (energies) the Buddha taught as the original truth are totally different that of Citta, cetasika , and Rupa that our perception can now detect.

The time duration of one unit of citta or consciousness or mind consisting of three phases [arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga)] is even less than one-trillionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second). The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.

To know the real meaning of citta and Utilization of the truth of "one citta at a time" in Vipassana meditation and daliy life:

http://www.mediafire.com/?x078w45yh6maa6a
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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acinteyyo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by acinteyyo » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:41 am

Soe Win Htut wrote: But "the citta or consciousness" in Abhidhamma is not as same as the consciousness that we are now understanding.

We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Because the time duration and the rate of vanishing of Citta (mind), cetasika (metal factors), and Rupa (energies) the Buddha taught as the original truth are totally different that of Citta, cetasika , and Rupa that our perception can now detect.

The time duration of one unit of citta or consciousness or mind consisting of three phases [arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga)] is even less than one-trillionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second). The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.
To be honest, I don't believe a single word of this nonsense, but this is not subject of this discussion.
Soe Win Htut wrote:We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Does this tell us the Abhidhamma? Why? Any quotes?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Soe Win Htut
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by Soe Win Htut » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:53 am

acinteyyo wrote:
Soe Win Htut wrote: But "the citta or consciousness" in Abhidhamma is not as same as the consciousness that we are now understanding.

We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Because the time duration and the rate of vanishing of Citta (mind), cetasika (metal factors), and Rupa (energies) the Buddha taught as the original truth are totally different that of Citta, cetasika , and Rupa that our perception can now detect.

The time duration of one unit of citta or consciousness or mind consisting of three phases [arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga)] is even less than one-trillionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second). The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.
To be honest, I don't believe a single word of this nonsense, but this is not subject of this discussion.
Soe Win Htut wrote:We should not take the mind or consiciousness we are now knowing is similar to citta the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth).
Does this tell us the Abhidhamma? Why? Any quotes?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Dear Acinteyyo,

Sorry for my explanation in reverse order.

We should not take the mind and body we are now knowing is directly similar to citta, cetasika, and Rupa the Buddha taught as the original truth (ultimate truth or paramatha). But because of arising and vanishing nature of citta and cetasika in very high rate, the mind and body that our current perception can detect , seem to be real or existing really.

Citta, cetasika, and Rupa the Buddha taught in Abhidhamma is original truth(paramatha sacca) but Citta, cetasika, and Rupa of our current perception is just created truth (pannyati or Sammutic sacca).


It is very simple and straight forward understanding from Abhidhamma pitika or the teaching of Insight meditation teachers(tradition) from Myanmar such as Mogok Sayadaw(Mogok Vipassana) , Tee Inn Gu Vipassana (Tee In Gu Sayadaw) and Sayadaw Ven Ottamasara.

----------------------------------------
The time duration and the rate of vanishing of Citta (mind), cetasika (metal factors), and Rupa (energies) the Buddha taught as the original truth are totally different that of Citta, cetasika , and Rupa that our perception can now detect.
In the wink of an eye or a flash of lightning, which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second), the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease a trillion (10^12) times (1,000,000,000,000 times) in Dhatukatha, the “Discourse on Energies,” (from PTS).
The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.

Ref: A Manual of Abhidhamma by Narada Maha Thera
----------------------------------------
The body_matter that our perception can now know and the citta_consciousness or thinking that we can now understand is existing for a second, a minute or a certain period.

If we think the mind and body our perceptions can now detect is directly similar to Citta, cetasika, and Rupa the Buddha taught as the original truths(paramatha sacca), it means we or psychologist have already known and understood the original truths (paramatha sacca) that the Buddha taught without the middle way or Vipassana practice.

We think citta__consciousness of our current perception can now detect is real or existing really. In fact, citta or body that our senses can now detect is unreal, fake and fraud but it seems to be real and existing really in our perception because of the momentum of vanishing nature of citta and cetasika in very high rate (Avijja and Sankhara__or Samudaya Sacca).

What I mean is the citta or consciousness that our perceptions can now detect is just Sammuti sacca(pannyati).
Until real enlightenment (or) untill the mind is able to surpass or transcend the boundaries of
conceptuality (pannyati), whatever mind and body of our current perception is just the created truths (pannyati or sammuti sacca) .

kind regards,
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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acinteyyo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:37 pm

Soe Win Htut wrote:Dear Acinteyyo,
Sorry for my explanation in reverse order.
Hi Soe Win Htut,

no need for excuses. Thank you for your explanation but unfortunately you just repeated nearly the same things as before.
Just to tell me that somebody said the duration of mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second is not an convincing argument.
Soe Win Htut wrote:Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.
"extremely short" is a very elastic term. Can you provide a Sutta from the Anguttara Nikaya which supports your statement?
Does the Abhidhamma literature just tell us, arising and ceasing of mental elements is too fast to be recognized correctly as it is by common perception?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:07 pm

This sutta discusses the speed of the mind. Perhaps it's the one Soe Win Htut is thinking of.

SN 12.61 Assutavā Sutta: Uninstructed (1)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
:anjali:
Mike

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acinteyyo
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by acinteyyo » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote:This sutta discusses the speed of the mind. Perhaps it's the one Soe Win Htut is thinking of.

SN 12.61 Assutavā Sutta: Uninstructed (1)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike,

perhaps... but seriously this sutta doesn't imply such insane speed as mentioned, not even slightly. That what's called "mind", "intellect" or "consciousness" by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another can be seen easily. That it changes faster than the body, composed of the four great elements, which is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more is not surprising.
But to come from this to a duration of mental elements (cittta & cetasika arising and ceasing) at 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second however is very surprising.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:06 pm

I'm rather suspicious of over-interpretation from a very modern perspective here:
The time duration of one unit of citta or consciousness or mind consisting of three phases [arising or genesis (uppada) static or development (thiti), and cessation or dissolution (bhanga)] is even less than one-trillionth part of the time occupied by a flash of lightning which lasts for a microsecond (10^-6 second). The subcommentary takes the higher figure of 10^15. The subcommentary said that the mental elements (cittta & cetasika) arise and cease 10^15 x 10^6 = 10^21 times per second. Their extremely short duration is also mentioned in the Anguttara Nikaya.
I have not examined the original text (not sure exactly where to look...) but obviously this is a very modern calculation.

One can immediately discount the "microsecond" number. If you asked me to observe a lightning flash without the benefit of electronic gadgetry or modern calculations I would most likely conclude that a lightning flash lasts for around a second. To me the flash usually appears "frozen" in the sky for a considerable time (perhaps partly due to overload of the retina...).

And as for the trillionth (10^-12), I gather that's made up of a bunch of factors, most of which one might assume are there for effect, rather than any attempt at scientific accuracy. It would be interesting to see the actual Abhidhamma and Commentary texts.

:namaste:
Mike

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:43 pm

See Bhikkhu Bodhi's comments on page 156 of CMA (you should be able to click on the relevant page...):
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxo ... an&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sutta referred to there is:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AN 3.47 Sankhata Sutta: Fabricated
"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.
:anjali:
Mike

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cooran
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by cooran » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:14 pm

Hello all,

Not sure if this post from another forum will add to the discussion:

Duration of Cittas, Cetasikas, Rupa

Dear Alex and others,

“The life-span of a citta is termed, in the
Abhidhamma, a mind-moment (cittakkhana). This is a
temporal unit of such brief duration that, according
to the commentators, in the time that it takes for
lightning to flash or the eyes to blink, billions of
mind-moments can elapse. Nevertheless, though
seemingly infinitesimal, each mind-moment in turn
consists of three sub-moments – arising (uppaada),
presence (thiti), and dissolution (bhanga). Within the
breadth of a mind-moment, a citta arises, performs its
momentary function, and then dissolves, conditioning
the next citta in immediate succession. Thus, through
the sequence of mind-moments, the flow of
consciousness continues uninterrupted like the waters
in a stream.” [page 156 of CMA]

“Material phenomena as well pass through the same
three stages of arising, presence, and dissolution,
but for them the time required for these three stages
to elapse is equal to the time it takes for seventeen
cittas to arise and perish. The stages of arising and
dissolution are equal in duration for both material
and mental phenomena, but in the case of material
phenomena the stage of presence is equal to forty-nine
sub-moments of mental phenomena,” [pp. 156-157 0f CMA]

“The cetasikas are mental phenomena that occur in
immediate conjunction with citta or consciousness, and
assist citta by performing more specific tasks in the
total act of cognition. The mental factors cannot
arise without citta, nor can citta arise completely
segregated from the mental factors. But though the two
are functionally interdependent, citta is regarded as
primary because the mental factors assist in the
cognition of the object depending upon citta., which
is the principal cognitive element. The relationship
between citta and the cetasikas is compared to that
between a king and his retinue. Although one says “the
king is coming”, the king does not come alone, but he
always comes accompanied by his attendants. Similarly,
whenever a citta arises, it never arises alone but
always accompanied by its retinue of cetatsikas.”
[page 76 of CMA]

The four characteristics that delineate the
relationship between the citta and its concomitant
cetasikas are as follows:
(1) arising together with consciousness (ekuppaada),
(2) ceasing together with consciousness (ekanirodha),
(3) having the same object as consciousness
(ekaalambana),
(4) having the same base as consciousness
(ekavatthuka).
[page 77 of CMA]

Respectfully,
Han

http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/lofive ... p?t81.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:39 pm

Thanks Chris,

That's easier than going to the Google Books reference I gave above.

Unfortunately, I guess the actual calculation being referred to is buried in some untranslated commentary...

:anjali:
Mike

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cooran
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Re: One "citta" at a time

Post by cooran » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:32 am

Hello Mike,all,

A .zip file of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA) is available at:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ftp07.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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