Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
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Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
I've read here and elsewhere that the realization of Buddha and Arahant are the same. But are their bodies different in power, qualities, etc.? (According to Abhidamma)
- DarwidHalim
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
I think majority of Theravada will have a view that Buddha is equivalent to Arahant due to their realization of what is called boddhi.
The difference other than that realization, such as their skills, cannot be used to differentiate Buddha and Arahant.
The difference other than that realization, such as their skills, cannot be used to differentiate Buddha and Arahant.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
I see. Do others agree with this?DarwidHalim wrote:I think majority of Theravada will have a view that Buddha is equivalent to Arahant due to their realization of what is called boddhi.
The difference other than that realization, such as their skills, cannot be used to differentiate Buddha and Arahant.
- retrofuturist
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Greetings Brahmabull,
I do not recall seeing any cittas and cetasikas mentioned in the Abhidhamma that apply to a Buddha which would not apply similarly to an Arahant.... but then, I am not an Abhidhamma expert so don't take that as definitive.
Metta,
Retro.
I do not recall seeing any cittas and cetasikas mentioned in the Abhidhamma that apply to a Buddha which would not apply similarly to an Arahant.... but then, I am not an Abhidhamma expert so don't take that as definitive.
Similarly the focus in Abhidhamma literature tends to be on mind and mindstates, rather than physical and bodily attributes.their bodies different in power, qualities
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- DarwidHalim
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
I think the view of Bhikku Boddhi can enhance our view about it.
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha335.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha335.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
- tiltbillings
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
This does not address the Abhidhamma, but it does address the issue of Buddha and the arahants from the stand point of the suttas:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
It's standard canonical Theravāda that a buddha has knowledge and abilities not shared by arahant disciples. The Paṭisambhidāmagga (a text contained in the Khuddakanikāya) lists the following:brahmabull wrote:I've read here and elsewhere that the realization of Buddha and Arahant are the same. But are their bodies different in power, qualities, etc.? (According to Abhidamma)
- knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
- knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
- knowledge of the twin miracle*
- knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
- omniscience & unobstructed knowledge
*i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Based on Bhikku Bodhi the only qualitative difference I can see is prowess with regard to instruction. But if I read your quotes correctly, there is nothing to stop an Arahant from developing this?tiltbillings wrote:This does not address the Abhidhamma, but it does address the issue of Buddha and the arahants from the stand point of the suttas:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- tiltbillings
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
But it should be kept in mind, this is not fully sutta stuff.Ñāṇa wrote:It's standard canonical Theravāda that a buddha has knowledge and abilities not shared by arahant disciples. The Paṭisambhidāmagga (a text contained in the Khuddakanikāya) lists the following:brahmabull wrote:I've read here and elsewhere that the realization of Buddha and Arahant are the same. But are their bodies different in power, qualities, etc.? (According to Abhidamma)
- knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
- knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
- knowledge of the twin miracle*
- knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
- omniscience & unobstructed knowledge
*i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Theoretically, probably not. Practically, probably not so easy, depending upon any number of conditions. The point is that the suttas preserves a very radical take on the Buddha vis a vis the arahants that we can see starts to change with the Buddha becoming valorized (even in the suttas), having more and distinct powers and whatnot. That seems to be a natural human tendency to want our guy to be mightier than their guy. Though not completely, the Theravadins did seem to resist that tendency.brahmabull wrote:Based on Bhikku Bodhi the only qualitative difference I can see is prowess with regard to instruction. But if I read your quotes correctly, there is nothing to stop an Arahant from developing this?tiltbillings wrote:This does not address the Abhidhamma, but it does address the issue of Buddha and the arahants from the stand point of the suttas:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149864" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p149866" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Hi Tilt,
I'm not following exactly the fluffy sutta and our guy their guy comment. Please clarify.
I'm not following exactly the fluffy sutta and our guy their guy comment. Please clarify.
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Thank youÑāṇa wrote:It's standard canonical Theravāda that a buddha has knowledge and abilities not shared by arahant disciples. The Paṭisambhidāmagga (a text contained in the Khuddakanikāya) lists the following:brahmabull wrote:I've read here and elsewhere that the realization of Buddha and Arahant are the same. But are their bodies different in power, qualities, etc.? (According to Abhidamma)
- knowledge of the penetration of other beings' faculties
- knowledge of other beings' biases and underlying tendancies
- knowledge of the twin miracle*
- knowledge of the attainment of great compassion
- omniscience & unobstructed knowledge
*i.e. the ability to produce fire and water from various parts of the body, as well as walk amid an aura of colors while a created image of his body sits or lies down, etc.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
No fluffy sutta; rather, what I said: "But it should be kept in mind, this is not fully sutta stuff." The Paṭisambhidāmagga is in-between the suttas and the Abhidhamma, which is assuming the historical understanding that the Abhidhamma came after the Buddha's death, and it is also reasonable to argue that the Paṭisambhidāmagga came after the Buddha's death.brahmabull wrote:Hi Tilt,
I'm not following exactly the fluffy sutta and our guy their guy comment. Please clarify.
As for the "other guy" comment, it is pretty much what it says. My dad can beat up your dad. To put it in very broad and crude terms, if the Jains posited that their guy was this way and that, the Buddhists responded by saying our guy is even more so. We probably would like to think that the early Buddhists would not do stuff like that, but they did. They even argued over how the Buddha's poop smelled.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
I see. I think my eyes didn't work well in the late hours. Can I ask you what is the rationale behind giving primacy to early texts? Then, what are the earliest of the early (pre-Sangha?) texts? Couldn't one argue that his teachings pre-Sangha are the real Buddhism, and then Buddha had to adjust the rhetoric to fit the emergence of a growing organization (whereby doctrines and rules were necessitated to keep order among the devotees)? If even the Buddha accepted an evolution of ideas and doctrines over his life, why wouldn't that continue after his death? I'm not arguing for an evolving Buddhism, I'm just trying to understand your position.tiltbillings wrote:No fluffy sutta; rather, what I said: "But it should be kept in mind, this is not fully sutta stuff." The Paṭisambhidāmagga is in-between the suttas and the Abhidhamma, which is assuming the historical understanding that the Abhidhamma came after the Buddha's death, and it is also reasonable to argue that the Paṭisambhidāmagga came after the Buddha's death.brahmabull wrote:Hi Tilt,
I'm not following exactly the fluffy sutta and our guy their guy comment. Please clarify.
As for the "other guy" comment, it is pretty much what it says. My dad can beat up your dad. To put it in very broad and crude terms, if the Jains posited that their guy was this way and that, the Buddhists responded by saying our guy is even more so. We probably would like to think that the early Buddhists would not do stuff like that, but they did. They even argued over how the Buddha's poop smelled.
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Re: Body of a Buddha vs. Arahant in Abhidhamma
Vasubhandu mentions in the Kosha that the Buddha's body is "Narayana" to house infinite knowledge. I'm wondering where this comes from.