Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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mikenz66
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:That brings us to three Suttas, all of which were occasions for explaining two truths, but none of which actually seem to clearly do so.
Sorry, I'm completely baffled by arguments such as this.

A key point of the Buddha's teaching, spelled out in hundreds or thousands of suttas (as I pointed out above), is that we can analyse our experience into the mere arising and falling of phenomena. And this is the key to awakening, seeing through the self-creating papanca.

So, as I understand it, the whole teaching revolves around aspects of the two-truths/paramattha issue.

Perhaps I'm missing something and this whole discussion is hinging on technicalities of particular definitions of "two truths". I'm concerned simply with the general concept, not such details.

:anjali:
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:A key point of the Buddha's teaching, spelled out in hundreds or thousands of suttas (as I pointed out above), is that we can analyse our experience into the mere arising and falling of phenomena. And this is the key to awakening, seeing through the self-creating papanca.

So, as I understand it, the whole teaching revolves around aspects of the two-truths/paramattha issue.
These seem unrelated to me, at first blush. Yeah, there is arising, ceasing, change-while-standing, and there are the five aggregates or the six sense bases, and this is the All. One truth, so far...

What would you put in the blank, mikenz?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote: What goes in the blank, tilt? Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly edifying.
Of course it would edifying, but I asked you first and I shall await your answer before I give mine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: What goes in the blank, tilt? Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly edifying.
Of course it would edifying, but I asked you first and I shall await your answer before I give mine.
:anjali:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:A key point of the Buddha's teaching, spelled out in hundreds or thousands of suttas (as I pointed out above), is that we can analyse our experience into the mere arising and falling of phenomena. And this is the key to awakening, seeing through the self-creating papanca.

So, as I understand it, the whole teaching revolves around aspects of the two-truths/paramattha issue.
These seem unrelated to me, at first blush. Yeah, there is arising, ceasing, change-while-standing, and there are the five aggregates or the six sense bases, and this is the All. One truth, so far...

What would you put in the blank, mikenz?
The self and it's various accessories (body, etc), which may be alternatively seen as just arising and ceasing of phenomena...

Isn't this Dhamma 101?

:anjali:
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:...Isn't this Dhamma 101?
Well, sure. However:
tiltbillings wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:A Note on Attā in the Alagaddūpama Sutta – By K.R. Norman
This is an excellent essay. Well worth the time to study.
I grabbed this from the resources thread in this subforum; I think an article such as this one explicates what the Buddha meant by atta very well, and that anatta is thereby clarified... and, interestingly, I notice that a two truths idea is not present. It isn't mentioned at all. Not by Norman, not by the Buddha.

So, it seems referring to a two truths idea isn't at all necessary when trying to understand what the Buddha meant by atta and anatta, contrary to what you claim.

Is there anything else we can put in that blank? It's not looking good...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

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Excuse me guys but it seems I don't really get the point of this discussion? What is meant by "two truths"? Anyone so kind to clarify (in short if possible) for me?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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cooran
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This might be of interest:

Two Truths in Buddhism
Professor N. A. de S. Amaratunga

Theravada Buddhism had described two Truths; Absolute Truth (Paramatha Sathya) and Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sathya). Nagarjuna Thera of the Mahayana Tradition also identified two truths, but his theory was different from that of Theravada Buddhism.
Are there, in fact, two types of Truth in Theravada Buddhism? Do these two Truths vary in degree? Is Absolute Truth superior in anyway to the Conventional Truth? Some Buddhists commit the mistake that Absolute Truth is superior to the Conventional Truth and some go to the extent of saying that Nirvana is the Absolute Truth.
On the basis of this premise, they arrive at new interpretations of Nirvana, which could be misleading. In fact, there is only one Truth in Buddhism, but there are two ways of presenting it. This will be explained briefly.
Buddha and also the Abhidhamic theorists who based their discussions on the Buddha’s preaching have categorically said that the Absolute Truth is not superior to the Conventional Truth and that there is no difference in degree between the two. More importantly, either of these two Truths could be made use of to gain insight and follow the path to Enlightenment. Buddha had used both in his preaching depending on the intellectual ability of the listener.
What then was the reason for identifying two Truths? In early Buddhist preaching, all phenomena of human existence, both mental and physical, had been analyzed according to five methods.
In the first method, they were analyzed into "nama" and "rupa", in the second into five aggregates (rupa, vedana, sangna, sankara and vingnana), in the third into six elements (earth, water, temperature, air, space, and consciousness), in the fourth into twelve avenues of sense perception and mental formation and in the fifth into eighteen "dhatus".
These derivatives were considered as the elements of all phenomena of human existence. When a particular phenomenon was explained in terms of these elements, the explanation was considered as the Absolute Truth. When the same phenomenon was explained in terms of general agreement it was considered as the Conventional Truth.
Later Abhidhamic theorists had recognized the need to analyze further the above mentioned elements and they arrived at irreducible ultimate factors, which were called Dhammas, a comprehensive list of which appears in the Abhidhamma Pitakaya. These Dhammas it is said, participate in the process of dependent co-origination. Though they are recognized as ultimate elements for purposes of understanding, they are not separate entities and each occurs in conjunction with several other Dhammas. Their occurrence is dependent on conditions and once created they too can act as conditions for the occurrence of others. All mental experiences and physical phenomena occur in this manner. An explanation of a phenomenon, mental or material, in terms of these Dhammas is said to be the Absolute Truth. When the same phenomenon is explained in terms of general agreement, that explanation is said to be the Conventional Truth. If for example, a human being is explained in terms of the five "skandhas", it is considered an Absolute Truth. On the other hand, if a human being is explained as a person who will goes through life and suffer and finally die in a process of endless "samsara", then it will be a Conventional Truth.

These definitions, however, do not mean there are two types of Truth in Theravada Buddhism, but rather two ways of presenting the Truth.
As mentioned earlier either could be made use of, as two ways of arriving at the path to Enlightenment. Thus there is only one Truth in Theravada Buddhism.
08 09 2008 - The Island
http://ipm.comxa.com/aloka/journal11.htm#J11.01" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Goedert »

The name people describe the illusion and awakening doesn't matter. The Buddha teached it, if not so... all would be a lie.

There is the noble truth and common truth.
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mikenz66
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote: Is there anything else we can put in that blank? It's not looking good...
It looks perfectly obvious to me.
acinteyyo wrote:Excuse me guys but it seems I don't really get the point of this discussion? What is meant by "two truths"? Anyone so kind to clarify (in short if possible) for me?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Here is one reasonably general way of putting it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddhist doctrine of the two truths differentiates between two levels of truth (Sanskrit: satya) in Buddhist discourse: a "relative" or commonsense truth (Pāli: sammuti sacca), and an "ultimate" or absolute, spiritual truth (Pāli: paramattha sacca). This avoids confusion between doctrinally accurate statements about the true nature of reality (e.g., "there is no self") and practical statements that refer to things which, while not expressing the true nature of reality, are necessary in order to communicate easily and help people achieve enlightenment (e.g., talking to a student about "himself" or "herself").
It seems to me that those different levels of description are abundantly clear in the suttas, as I've pointed out above. The Buddha talked about conventional "beings" and son on. He also talked about phenomena in terms of khandhas, sense bases, and anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc.

I suspect that the labelling of these descriptions as "truths", and use of Abhidhamma words such as "paramattha" are where some members have objections, but it would be up to them to explain themselves.

:anjali:
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

A few more links for your consideration and reflection.

An interesting Retreat coming up at Plum Village:
The Sciences of the Buddha - A 21-day retreat for Buddhists and Scientists June 1st to 21st 2012
Plum Village, France

‘’In Buddhism there are two kinds of truth: conventional truth (S: samvṛti-satya C: 俗諦) and ultimate truth (S: paramārtha-satya, C: 真諦). In the framework of the conventional truth, Buddhists speak of being and non-being, birth and death, coming and going, inside and outside, one and many, etc… and the Buddhist teaching and practice based on this framework helps reduce suffering, and bring more harmony and happiness. In the framework of the ultimate truth, the teaching transcends notions of being and non-being, birth and death, coming and going, inside and outside, one and many, etc… and the teaching and practice based on this insight help practitioners liberate themselves from discrimination, fear, and touch nirvana, the ultimate reality. Buddhists see no conflict between the two kinds of truth and are free to make good use of both frameworks.’’
[more at http://www.plumvillage.org/news/309-the ... uddha.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]

Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera - The Ultimate Truth
The Ultimate Truth can be found in the Teaching of the Buddhism.
Buddhism recognizes two kinds of Truth. The apparent conventional truth and the real or ultimate Truth. The ultimate Truth can be realized only through meditation, and not theorizing or speculating.
[Read article here ….. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/56.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]

Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca) and Ultimate Truth (Paramattha Sacca)Two kinds of Truth are recognised in the Abhidhamma according to which only four categories of things namely, mind (consciousness), mental concomitants, Materiality and Nibbæna are classed as the Ultimate Truth; all the rest are regarded as apparent truth. When we use such expressions as ‘I’, ‘you’, ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘person’, ‘individual’, we are speaking about things which do not exist in reality. By using such expressions about things which exist only in designation, we are not telling a lie; we are merely speaking an apparent truth, making use of conventional language, without which no communication will be possible.
But the Ultimate Truth is that there is no ‘person’, ‘individual’ or ‘I’ in reality. There exist only khandhas made up of corporeality, mind (consciousness) and mental concomitants. These are real in that they are not just designations, they actually exist in us or around us.
http://www.buddhanet.net/twotruth.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Urban Dharma Newsletter... March 16, 2004
------------------------------
In This Issue: Ultimate and Relative Truth in Buddhism

0. Humor/Quotes...
1. The Two Truths ...Mark Whitley's home page - Mark's Musings
2. Relative Truth and Ultimate Truth ...Researched by Andrea Deschenes
3. Buddhism Introduces Absolute and Relative Truth ...Vairocana Monastery
4. Shunyata in Pure Land Buddhism ...Michio Tokunaga
5. The Curative Value of Egolessness and the Ethical Importance of Compassion in Buddhism ...Sharon Belfer
6. Emptiness, Concepts and the knowledge of Truth ...The White Lotus Center for Shin Buddhism
7. E-sangha, Buddhist Forum & Buddhism Forum - Truth?
8. Temple/Center/Website: A Season for Nonviolence
9. Book/CD/Movie: Appearance and Reality: The Two Truths in Four Buddhist Systems ...by Guy Newland
http://www.urbandharma.org/udnl2/nl031604.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa »

So it's used a lot in the abhidhamma, and not at all in the SuttaVinaya, is that the gist? Karunadasa wrote as much, back in the essay linked in the second post, so that's nothing new. I still can't fathom why the abhidhammikas worried about it.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 »

acinteyyo wrote:Excuse me guys but it seems I don't really get the point of this discussion? What is meant by "two truths"? Anyone so kind to clarify (in short if possible) for me?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Ultimately conventional world and objects do not exist.
One has to study ultimate realities for insight and maggaphala rather than conventional reality that can at best be used only for samatha.
Whenever the Buddha talked conventionally, it was only conventional and one has to interpret what He meant in ultimate terms.

This is what I've meant.
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings »

acinteyyo wrote:Excuse me guys but it seems I don't really get the point of this discussion? What is meant by "two truths"? Anyone so kind to clarify (in short if possible) for me?
See the link I provided:

http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/094.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ultimately conventional world and objects do not exist.
One has to study ultimate realities for insight and maggaphala rather than conventional reality that can at best be used only for samatha.
Whenever the Buddha talked conventionally, it was only conventional and one has to interpret what He meant in ultimate terms.

This is what I've meant.
That is what you meant, but is it what the Theravada teaches?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote: What goes in the blank, tilt? Your thoughts on this matter would be greatly edifying.
Of course it would edifying, but I asked you first and I shall await your answer before I give mine.
:anjali:
That is typical: no answer.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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