Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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ground
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by ground » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:36 am

[Deva:]
He who's an Arahant, his work achieved, Free from taints, in final body clad, That monk still might use such words as "I." Still perchance might say: "They call this mine." ... Would such a monk be prone to vain conceits?

[The Blessed One:]
Bonds are gone for him without conceits, All delusion's chains are cast aside: Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1] That monk still might use such words as "I," Still perchance might say: "They call this mine." Well aware of common worldly speech, He would speak conforming to such use.[2]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards

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Alex123
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:23 pm

TMingyur wrote:
[The Blessed One:] Bonds are gone for him without conceits, All delusion's chains are cast aside: Truly wise, he's gone beyond such thoughts.[1] That monk still might use such words as "I," Still perchance might say: "They call this mine." Well aware of common worldly speech, He would speak conforming to such use.[2]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kind regards
Thanks for that sutta quote. It was the sutta or one of the suttas that I had in mind when I've said in first post: "It seems that the only the words such as "I, me, mine, self" are conventional which the Buddha uses but does not assume eternal and happy Atta."

That sutta quote is very far from claiming that there are two truths and that ultimately conventional things do not exist. All the Buddha is saying is that He does not misinterpret His words to mean eternal, happy Atta whenever He uses personal pronouns.

With best wishes,
Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:25 pm

Alex123 wrote: All the Buddha is saying is that He does not misinterpret His words to mean eternal, happy Atta whenever He uses personal pronouns.
That does appear to be its exclusive context, doesn't it?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Alex123
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:32 pm

TMingyur wrote:B. Bodhi's translations
Bhikkhus, I do not dispute with the world; rather it is the world that disputes with me. A proponent of the dhamma does not dispute with anyone in the world.
Of that which the wise of the world agree upon as not existing, I too say that it does not exist. And of that which the wise in the world agree upon as existing, I too say that it exists.
SN22.94
Kind regards
The quote misses the essential part:

And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist? [139] Form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say that it does not exist. Feeling … Perception … Volitional constructions … Consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say that it does not exist." - SN22.94

What doesn't exist are 5 aggregates that are "permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change".

What does exist is:

"“And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling that is impermanent … Perception … Volitional constructions … Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists."
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:36 pm

daverupa wrote:
Alex123 wrote: All the Buddha is saying is that He does not misinterpret His words to mean eternal, happy Atta whenever He uses personal pronouns.
That does appear to be its exclusive context, doesn't it?
It definitely seems so. Buddha used words personal pronouns but didn't give them idea of permanent, happy, Atman.

I can't remember anywhere Buddha teaching that the world of conventional reality (such as tables, cars, trees, etc) doesn't exist at all. If this was so important to distinguish concepts from reality, the Buddha would have taught it very clearly and often.

Going through pali search engine doesn't give much results for words such as "paramasaccaṃ" which is used in phrase such as:
Here, bhikkhus, a certain thoroughbred man hears, in such and such a village or hamlet, a woman or man is either gravely ill or is dead and he becomes frightened and remorseful. Then he wisely arouses effort to dispel, realizes the highest truth with the body (kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ) and penetratingly sees it with wisdom. Bhikkhus, he is like the first thoroughbred horse, who is frightened and remorseful seeing the case of the whip. This is the first thoroughbred man evident in the world.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it
pahitatto samāno kāyena ceva paramasaccaṃ sacchikaroti paññāya ca naṃ ativijjha passati
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for truth (paramena saccādhiṭṭhānena), for this — Unbinding, the undeceptive — is the highest noble truth. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nibbana is highest truth.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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cooran
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by cooran » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:01 pm

Hello Qtt, all,

This might help:

THERAVADA VERSION OF THE TWO TRUTHS
Y. KARUNADASA Visiting Professor Centre of Buddhist Studies, University of Hong Kong
(Emeritus Professor, University of Kelaniya, Sri Lanka)

http://skb.or.kr/down/papers/094.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 pm

cooran wrote:This might help:
This was already linked...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:26 pm

Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?

Image
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:47 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
As for me, the question goes the other way, tilt - of what use is such an idea? What, from the SuttaVinaya, is made clearer?
As usual no heavy lifting from you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.
What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:55 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:As usual no heavy lifting from you.
What an odd thing to say. :shrug:
You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response. You tend make snide and dismissive remarks about various teachings with which you disagree and when asked about what you are saying you just refuse to explain your remarks, and so it goes here, again.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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daverupa
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by daverupa » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.
You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, it actually cuts to the chase, but you'll see what you want.
tiltbillings wrote:snide and dismissive remarks
tiltbillings wrote:you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers
Indeed.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Alex123
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by Alex123 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 pm

Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Just out of curiosity, you two-truth pooh-pooh-ers (Alex123, Daverupa, retro)) what do you see is wrong with the two-truth notion? Gives us a bit more than simple pooh-poohing.
If it was very important, then the Buddha would frequently and clearly teach about it and there would be no doubt if He taught it.

nītattha and neyyattha are mentioned in two similar suttas out of thousands of suttas.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And these terms do not even need to be interpreted as saying about two truths.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Two truths theory. Did Buddha teach it?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:11 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You were asked as simple question, and I got dodge in response.
You were asked a simple question as well - which isn't a dodge, actually, but you'll see what you want.
I'll be happy to answer the question, but I asked you first, and as matter of curtesy, your answering the question would be the way to go, and in turn then asking me question.

Basically, I would like to know what it is that you guys think the two truth notion is actually saying and why it is wrong, as your dismissals seem to suggest..
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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