McMindfulness meditation dangers

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:06 am

Greetings,

There is no Buddhist meditation without Right View.

Beyond that to "McMindfulness", I'm not qualified, nor particularly interested to speculate.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

There is no Buddhist meditation without Right View.
Are you sure? Sounds like a speculation to me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:32 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are you sure? Sounds like a speculation to me.
Sounds like sutta to me.
MN 117 wrote:"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:34 am

Hi Retro,

That's the interesting point. Where does this "right view" come from, how unique is it, how much do you need, and at what point does lack of instruction in it block progress?

In the Canon it is said that some attained stream entry with very little instruction
Sariputta for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... saristream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Though the meditation techniques being taught are not taught with any formal Buddhist explanation, they are Bhuddist-derived teachings, and seem to be bringing up at least some of the same things you'd expect in a Buddhist context (insight into anatta, etc...).

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:38 am

Greetings Mike,

I think the "run & circle" indicates mutual reinforcement and iterative development of those components, where Right View is the central anchor.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are you sure? Sounds like a speculation to me.
Sounds like sutta to me.
MN 117 wrote:"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
Metta,
Retro. :)
Actually, that does not support your speculation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:42 am

OK Tilt, fine.

:|

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by daverupa » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:seem to be bringing up at least some of the same things you'd expect in a Buddhist context (insight into anatta, etc...).
I wonder if the spectrum of these spontaneous insights, when recorded, would in any way map onto the mistaken "insights" recorded in the Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1)... it might be where Right View comes in as an essential component of Buddhist bhavana, as retro suggests, since meditation was an extant practice in the Buddha's day.

Otherwise, what else differentiates the Buddha's bhavana teachings from others of his milieu? Rupajhana?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:52 am

retrofuturist wrote:OK Tilt, fine.
Of course it is fine.

For Bahiya, a non-followwer of the Buddha, the Buddha did not lecture him on Right View. He gave him a very basic, stripped down practice, which was enough for him to gain awakening:
Ud 1.10 PTS: Ud 6
Bahiya Sutta: About Bahiya
translated from the Pali by
John D. Ireland
© 1998–2009
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. Then the Lord, having instructed Bahiya with this brief instruction, went away…
..

"Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana."

Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance:

Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain.
This inspired utterance was spoken by the Lord also, so I did hear.
Fine, indeed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:57 am

Hi Dave,
daverupa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:seem to be bringing up at least some of the same things you'd expect in a Buddhist context (insight into anatta, etc...).
I wonder if the spectrum of these spontaneous insights, when recorded, would in any way map onto the mistaken "insights" recorded in the Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1)... it might be where Right View comes in as an essential component of Buddhist bhavana, as retro suggests, since meditation was an extant practice in the Buddha's day.

Otherwise, what else differentiates the Buddha's bhavana teachings from others of his milieu? Rupajhana?
Yes, that would be interesting. What seems to be clear is that it is possible to get to this "dissolution of self" stage without knowing any "theory". What Kelly seemed to be saying in her interview was that her students are then lost as to how to interpret those glimses of insight. And presumably, left to their own devices, they would come up with all kinds of views that were "wrong view" from a Buddhist standpoint.

:anjali:
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:00 am

Greetings Tilt,

Who says "Right View" necessitates being lectured?

The Buddha's instruction to Bahiya was based on Right View, namely,
"When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping.
Note, Dhamma teaching (i.e. based in Right View), not McMindfulness.

There is no Buddhist meditation without Right View.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by Ben » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:12 am

Hi Dave,
I think a modicum of right view exists when there is awareness of one's own suffering and that engaging in practice may be of benefit.
Hence, those people engaging in Dr McGonigal's programs were experiencing some benefit and some reported insights. How one progresses on the path from then on, I think, will depend on how attuned the program is with the Dhamma and traditional Dhammic practices. Though I am sure Dr McGonigal is well aware f those issues.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Who says "Right View" necessitates being lectured?

The Buddha's instruction to Bahiya was based on Right View, namely,
"When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping.
Note, Dhamma teaching (i.e. based in Right View), not McMindfulness.

There is no Buddhist meditation without Right View.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Uh huh. What is interesting here is that you seem to be arguing that conceptual thought is a(n absolute?) necessity for awakening. What the Buddha is telling Bahiya is what will happen "when in the seen just the seen." "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that. . . . .' If the practice -- "when in the seen just the seen" -- is efficacious, whether or not the Buddha tells one what will happen as a result of doing the practice, doing the practice should lead to the result the Buddha described.

Now, if the instructions are given (that are consistent with the Dhamma), followed carefully, and the person has insight, is it Dhamma teaching or McMindfulness? Is the insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta valid or a great big phony bunch of baloney?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:08 am

tiltbillings wrote: What is interesting here is that you seem to be arguing that conceptual thought is a(n absolute?) necessity for awakening.
Yes, that is, in part, the issue I was trying to get at with the topic:
Are suttas necessary to practice meditation? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10071" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote: What the Buddha is telling Bahiya is what will happen "when in the seen just the seen." "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that. . . . .' If the practice -- "when in the seen just the seen" -- is efficacious, whether or not the Buddha tells one what will happen as a result of doing the practice, doing the practice should lead to the result the Buddha described.
And, in fact, that's the way most Buddhist teachers I know of approach Dhamma. They give instructions and then give guidance based on what the students experience.
tiltbillings wrote: Now, if the instructions are given (that are consistent with the Dhamma), followed carefully, and the person has insight, is it Dhamma teaching or McMindfulness? Is the insight into anicca, dukkha, and anatta valid or a great big phony bunch of baloney?
Cleary it's Dhamma teaching if it results in Right View.
But that may well not happen without follow-up support, as discussed in the talk.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: McMindfulness meditation dangers

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:19 am

mikenz66 wrote: Cleary it's Dhamma teaching if it results in Right View.
But that may well not happen without follow-up support, as discussed in the talk.
That raises an interesting question. Does the insight one has have to be bottled in the proper container for it to Dhamma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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