Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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cooran
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by cooran » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:24 pm

Hello Santa100,

Can't seem to find them here:
http://www.yourhomedepot.com.au/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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daverupa
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by daverupa » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:29 pm

That might be because electronic pest control is bogus.

here comes the science

The evidence for these devices comes solely in the form of testimonials, but alas, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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mikenz66
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:35 pm

Hi Chris,

I'm sure you've heard this before, but the survival of any living being (such as you or me) is in some ways detrimental to other living beings. Building the house in the first place undoubtedly killed many beings, either directly or by depriving them of habitat. I think that it is important to recognise that all we can do is reduce our impact, not eliminate it.

:anjali:
Mike

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cooran
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by cooran » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:44 pm

thanks Mike, all,

The problem lies with 'intentional' and 'unintentional' when it comes to Kamma-vipaka.

There are very many beings (borers) in the timber. To hire a Pestie to treat the house would be intentional action. But to not hire a Pestie would mean the house will become ruined, and I won't be able to sell it - which is my intention in the next year - and this is a financial need.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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DNS
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by DNS » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:24 pm

mikenz66 wrote: I'm sure you've heard this before, but the survival of any living being (such as you or me) is in some ways detrimental to other living beings. Building the house in the first place undoubtedly killed many beings, either directly or by depriving them of habitat. I think that it is important to recognise that all we can do is reduce our impact, not eliminate it.
Good points. I think the only way one can truly avoid all killing of even the smallest insects is to live as a Jain ascetic with no clothes and no shelter. And even then, it may be impossible. :o Even though he eats the tops of veggies, not killing the source plant, there may be some very tiny nematodes on those plants.

Reduced killing is probably the only feasible solution.

santa100
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by santa100 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:33 pm

Hi Cooran, if there's a Home Depot near your home, you could just stop by to ask the folks there and get lots of valuable free consultation about your problem. You still need to identify the exact kind of borers though (your pest control professional's gonna have to do this anyway in order to find the right chemicals to kill them). Can't hurt to try the electronic devices first, they're pretty cheap to get (~10 bucks in the States, don't know the price in Australia though), and if it works, the price tag will be just a fraction of the cost of professional chemicals. Also check out the natural pest repellents site here: http://www.ghorganics.com/page9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In the worst case scenario, have the experts do their stuff, you wasted 10 bucks on the electronic device and maybe a few bucks on lemon/onion skins for natural repellents, but with the peace of mind that at least you've tried. Good luck..

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Ben
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by Ben » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:33 am

Chris,
cooran wrote:thanks Mike, all,

The problem lies with 'intentional' and 'unintentional' when it comes to Kamma-vipaka.

There are very many beings (borers) in the timber. To hire a Pestie to treat the house would be intentional action. But to not hire a Pestie would mean the house will become ruined, and I won't be able to sell it - which is my intention in the next year - and this is a financial need.

with metta
Chris
We can't go through life without making some hard decisions. In your situation I would call in the exterminator. Having said that, it would not be an easy thing to do and not a decision that would not carry with it a great deal of regret.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Ben
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by Ben » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:36 am

daverupa wrote:That might be because electronic pest control is bogus.

here comes the science

The evidence for these devices comes solely in the form of testimonials, but alas, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Yes, I purchased an electronic repellant for rodents last year for one of the buildings where I work. It had zero impact.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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daverupa
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by daverupa » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:50 am

Ben wrote:It had zero impact.
But it was a wholesome intention, was it not? That has impact...

;)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:54 am

Cooran,
What I do in a situation like yours is:
1. Inform them of the damage they are doing.....yes I actually will think or say "I know you are a rat from your shit and you're behavior is damaging my things and is a danger to my health."
2. Ask them to leave and inform them of the consequences....yes I actually will think or say "you must leave my house and find another home somewhere else....there are many other places you can make a home and raise your family....I wish you luck in finding a good home and peace in raising your family....if you don't go I will put poison here and in your igorance you will eat it and die."
3. Apologize to them when you find their dead body.....yes I actually will think or say "I'm sorry that you didn't understand my advise and follow it....I guess you were clinging to life just like me and so your death was filled with dukkha....I hope that I develop the wisdom to avoid such clinging."
4. Declare that it is understandable that you might meet the exact same fate and die from poisoning and if this happens it is just and appropriate and not a matter to cling to or be averse to.

Anyway this is a very wordy redition of some of the things I do often when I kill something....sometimes I don't do all of them...if I am plowing a field and see that I have severed a snake in two I often apologize for that and warn other animals to leave the field so as to avoid this.......for example....

Another way to cope with it is to withdraw momentarily and stop the arising of the delusional self....when this happens equanimity arises along with the knowledge of the way things really are.....I guess.....don't know for sure.....
chownah

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Ben
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by Ben » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:57 am

daverupa wrote:
Ben wrote:It had zero impact.
But it was a wholesome intention, was it not? That has impact...

;)
Indeed, Dave, what I meant...zero impact on reducing the rodent population!
Or so it seems.
I've since purchased "catch and release" traps and even they don't seem to make much difference.
Perhaps its the plague!
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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ground
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by ground » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:51 am

whynotme wrote:Hi,

What do you consider the limit of not killing? Do you kill small bugs, ants, or do you consider bacteria, virus are living things? What things determine a living thing, and should not be killed? Size, nervous system, biological structure?

Wish I could ask the Buddha himself but can not so I ask for your opinions. It is an important question I need the answer.

Regards.
In general:
The basis is another being who is alive. The affliction is any of the three (attachment, aversion, delusion), and the motivation is the desire to kill. As for the performance it makes no difference whether the performers do it themselves or cause somebody else to do it. The culmination is the death of another on account of the performance.

This is called "killing" and entails the corresponding effects.

Principally there is no "absolution" through opinions of others. It is just about cause and effect. It is not about morality of a kind of "you must not do this or that" or "it is forbidden because the Buddha said this or that". Often people are asking others "what do you think?" but that is of no avail. Why? Because in case of conflict the answer can only be found through "investigating into oneself".

But of course if one holds a nihilistic view (i.e. negating cause and effect) then that's another issue in the context of the dhamma.

Kind regards

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cooran
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by cooran » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:13 am

chownah wrote:Cooran,
What I do in a situation like yours is:
1. Inform them of the damage they are doing.....yes I actually will think or say "I know you are a rat from your shit and you're behavior is damaging my things and is a danger to my health."
2. Ask them to leave and inform them of the consequences....yes I actually will think or say "you must leave my house and find another home somewhere else....there are many other places you can make a home and raise your family....I wish you luck in finding a good home and peace in raising your family....if you don't go I will put poison here and in your igorance you will eat it and die."
3. Apologize to them when you find their dead body.....yes I actually will think or say "I'm sorry that you didn't understand my advise and follow it....I guess you were clinging to life just like me and so your death was filled with dukkha....I hope that I develop the wisdom to avoid such clinging."
4. Declare that it is understandable that you might meet the exact same fate and die from poisoning and if this happens it is just and appropriate and not a matter to cling to or be averse to.

Anyway this is a very wordy redition of some of the things I do often when I kill something....sometimes I don't do all of them...if I am plowing a field and see that I have severed a snake in two I often apologize for that and warn other animals to leave the field so as to avoid this.......for example....

Another way to cope with it is to withdraw momentarily and stop the arising of the delusional self....when this happens equanimity arises along with the knowledge of the way things really are.....I guess.....don't know for sure.....
chownah
Hello chownah,

Thanks for this - but it is not mice or rats which I catch in a non-harming trap and release a couple of kilometres away in bushland near a creek - it is Termites/borers in the roof timbers.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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cooran
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Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by cooran » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:15 am

We can't go through life without making some hard decisions. In your situation I would call in the exterminator. Having said that, it would not be an easy thing to do and not a decision that would not carry with it a great deal of regret.
kind regards,

Ben
Thanks Ben!

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Killing, what should be considered killing? Bacteria, virus?

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:45 am

cooran wrote:Hello chownah,

Thanks for this - but it is not mice or rats which I catch in a non-harming trap and release a couple of kilometres away in bushland near a creek - it is Termites/borers in the roof timbers.

with metta
Chris
I know...I just used rats because that is the one I have dealt with the most....I would do this for insects too....I have done this with ants for instance.....I find it very helpful....

Also, the second approach can be used not only for these situations but also for any sort of negative intention that arises be it greed, envy, hate, lust,....it seems to work for all of them....I'll repeat it here:

Another way to cope with it is to withdraw momentarily and stop the arising of the delusional self....when this happens equanimity arises along with the knowledge of the way things really are.....I guess.....don't know for sure.....

chownah

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