Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I'd rather sit with chan/zen group than have no personal interaction.
It could be fine until strong ideological differences emerge, like those which I've posted few posts before. Maybe the contradictory advice would hinder rather than help? It is like, are you supposed to become better or are you already perfect with Buddha nature and all that? Two contradictory approaches. Practice is based on certain basic assumptions, and if they differ, then the practice would be different - even if it can initially seem to identical.

Cosmic consciousness The nearest comparison to satori is a glimpse of cosmic consciousness. Here in the Zen context, the most frequent exclamation is “nothingness.” Every thought, every vision, every master, every concept is transformed into nothingness. Before this breakthrough there is high tension. There maybe lights or maybe total darkness. Then abruptly the infinite space turns into nothingness. Or ‘I and the universe are one’ is a common comment http://www.kktanhp.com/a_touch_of_zen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mikenz66 wrote: The basics of mindfulness are simply the basics of mindfulness. Thich Nhat Hanh and his followers, for example, seem to me to have a very effective approach to mindfulness that is very compatible with Theravada teachers.
Thats because: Nhat Hanh's approach has been to combine a variety of traditional Zen teachings with methods from Theravada Buddhism, insights from Mahayana Buddhism, and ideas from Western psychology—to offer a modern light on meditation practice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nhat_Hanh#Approach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not every Zen center is like a buffet, and it may or may not be the best approach in all cases.
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Personally, I'd rather sit with chan/zen group than have no personal interaction.
It could be fine until strong ideological differences emerge, like those which I've posted few posts before.
If this is worked out with the teachers ahead of time, if should not be a problem.

Cosmic consciousness The nearest comparison to satori is a glimpse of cosmic consciousness. Here in the Zen context, the most frequent exclamation is “nothingness.” Every thought, every vision, every master, every concept is transformed into nothingness. Before this breakthrough there is high tension. There maybe lights or maybe total darkness. Then abruptly the infinite space turns into nothingness. Or ‘I and the universe are one’ is a common comment http://www.kktanhp.com/a_touch_of_zen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now you are reaching, going to a wack-doodle website for information. Obviously you know next to nothing about Zen.

Let it go, Alex. I lived -- not just visted, but lived -- three years in a Zen Center as a Theravadin and I never had a problem. They were very accomadating to me and I got a lot out of it.

Just let it go, Alex; let octathlon explore this possibility of funding support for his practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,

My experience is that in real life people don't go to meditation sessions to discuss doctrinal technicalities. Those really have little to do with it...

I understood this thread to be about the establishment of a basic meditation practice, which is what I'm talking about.

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,

My experience is that in real life people don't go to meditation sessions to discuss doctrinal technicalities. Those really have little to do with it...

I understood this thread to be about the establishment of a basic meditation practice, which is what I'm talking about.

:anjali:
Mike
And there is a very good possibility of the Zen center in question of being accommodating of that. octathlon will have to work with some of the external forms of the center, such as bowing, but then that is all just mindfulness practice and actually has an aesthetic quality to it that can be quite supportive of practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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octathlon
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by octathlon »

tiltbillings wrote:
octathlon wrote:Thank you, Tilt. :)
tiltbillings wrote:It worth a shot and just looking into it will be an interesting experience and worth doing.
:sage:
If you get a chance to meet with these teachers, let us know how it went.
OK. I will have to think about it for a while though, I don't jump into these things very easily.
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octathlon
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by octathlon »

TMingyur wrote:No offence intended since I do not find any advantage in identification with a tradition but I find it completely inconsistent to claim to follow Theravada but then practice with another tradition.
I'm not really concerned with meeting criteria for a particular label. I'm more concerned about having to learn a bunch of stuff from another tradition when I haven't even scratched the surface of Theravada. On the other hand it may not require all that, but be just a benefit to improve the meditation aspect of my Theravada practice. On the third hand it could turn out to be a perfect match for me and wind up converting to Zen. On the fourth hand I may decide not to practice there at all. :D
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ground
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by ground »

There may be no end of hands. :smile:
PeterB
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by PeterB »

Do you have or have you had a human Buddhist teacher T Mingyur.....
It it helps get the ball rolling I an more than happy to talk about my teachers.
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,
My experience is that in real life people don't go to meditation sessions to discuss doctrinal technicalities. Those really have little to do with it...
I understood this thread to be about the establishment of a basic meditation practice, which is what I'm talking about.
But meditation is based on certain basic fundamental assumptions and eventually these may be create irreconcilable differences of the purpose and the method of meditation. Just because they sit in meditation posture, it doesn't mean that their meditation has the same aim as in Theravada. Sure, initially there can be some overlap, but soon enough the differences can be seen. I've recently read plenty of authentic teachings from Zen masters in order to form this understanding. One Chan Master (ex: Sheng Yen) teacher talks about impermanence, emptiness, not-self.... Where is dukkha which is 1st NT? And generally the impression that I've got is that Dukkha tends to be under-emphasized in Zen, and I consider 4NT to be the key part of Dhamma.

The typical Zen teaching of "when I eat I just eat. When I walk I just walk, etc" has been severely criticized as becoming no better than animals. Animal too knows when he walks, eats, etc. So the Theravadin Satipatthana Commentary tells us how to avoid that.

Their emphasis on no-mind, no-thought, non-reliance on scriptures (which some may misunderstand to mean that ignorance is a bliss), almost sounds like trying to become like a little child, which the Buddha rebuked in suttas such as MN64.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Alex,
My experience is that in real life people don't go to meditation sessions to discuss doctrinal technicalities. Those really have little to do with it...
I understood this thread to be about the establishment of a basic meditation practice, which is what I'm talking about.
But meditation is based on certain basic fundamental assumptions and eventually these may be create irreconcilable differences of the purpose and the method of meditation. Just because they sit in meditation posture, it doesn't mean that their meditation has the same aim as in Theravada.
It does not mean that it is different, either.

I've recently read plenty of authentic teachings from Zen masters in order to form this understanding.
You read this, you read that, but there is yet no real understanding of Zen teachings. The "cosmic consciousness" quote you gave us shows you have not enough understanding to really know what you are talking about when it comes to things Zen.
The typical Zen teaching of "when I eat I just eat. When I walk I just walk, etc" has been severely criticized
. . .
Only by those who do not understand the point of what is being said.
Their emphasis on no-mind, no-thought, non-reliance on scriptures (which some may misunderstand to mean that ignorance is a bliss),
It is only a problem if you take it out of context. I'll be more than heppy to suggest a book or two if you are seriously interested in actually learning about Zen rather than cherry-picking from the internet.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:It is only a problem if you take it out of context. I'll be more than heppy to suggest a book or two if you are seriously interested in actually learning about Zen rather than cherry-picking from the internet.

Which ones would you suggest? Or even better, are there good articles online that you find helpful?

Anyways, some of the quotes I've provided were from authentic sources (such as Dogen, and recent master Sheng Yen). I did recently read "The Art of Just sitting" which had teachings of many reputable Zen masters. I've also read almost entirely Sheng Yen's book (method of no-method) from which I've quoted the impermanence, emptiness, not-self.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is only a problem if you take it out of context. I'll be more than heppy to suggest a book or two if you are seriously interested in actually learning about Zen rather than cherry-picking from the internet.

Which ones would you suggest? Or even better, are there good articles online that you find helpful?
Since I do not frequent Zen sites online, I cannot help you there, but I would recommend three books. First is Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhism: Teachings, History and Practices as a foundation for putting things into some context. Secondly, Robert Aitken's Taking the Path and finally, Zen Action: Zen Person by Thomas P. Kasulis. All of which can be gotten cheaply used.
Anyways, some of the quotes I've provided were from authentic sources (such as Dogen, and recent master Sheng Yen). I did recently read "The Art of Just sitting" which had teachings of many reputable Zen masters. I've also read almost entirely Sheng Yen's book (method of no-method) from which I've quoted the impermanence, emptiness, not-self.
If you are going to do comparisons, you really need to understand what it is that you are comparing, and that I have seen from you.

Why are you making such a struggle out of this? octathlon is an adult here. He can choose what works best for him. If as a Theravadin, sitting with a Zen group supports his practice, then that is good. If he runs into things that don't quite mesh with how he understands things, that is good, in that it can help him understand his own position better. Fundamentally, it is a matter, not of book learning, rather, it is a matter of learning to pay attention. As Dogen says: To study Buddhism is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be enlightened by all dharmas. To be enlightened by all dharmas is to be free from attachment to the body and mind of one's self and of others. It means wiping out even attachment to awakening. Wiping out attachment to awakening, we must enter actual society. When man first recognizes the Dharma, he unequivocally frees himself from the border of truth. He who awakens Dharma in himself, he is a human being in his own true place.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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octathlon
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by octathlon »

FYI: I am a "she". :smile:
Even with different schools, I figure the Dhamma is the Dhamma and we eventually find the approach that fits for us. For me, I have always been interested in Buddhism and read about Zen years ago-- because that used to be pretty much what all the books were about, pre-internet days. I found it intriguing but didn't feel it was something that would work for me. That could be from lack of a good understanding an no actual experience of it. But after finding Theravada, I found something that really resonates with me so much more.
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by PeterB »

In all honesty octhathlon if you find a local Zen group teaching Shikantaza, or a local Tibetan group teaching Vipashnya or Shamatha...( Vipassana or Samatha ) I doubt that you will experience anything wildly different from a meditation group run by Theravadins...Each and any of those options would be far better than an attempt to teach yourself from books or videos..
Beyond those meditation classes I guess any further involvement would be up to you...

:anjali:
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Re: Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Post by ground »

octathlon wrote:But after finding Theravada, I found something that really resonates with me so much more.
Maybe it's "having found the Buddha's words kindly having been transmitted through centuries".
And your involvement with Zen most likely was necessary to prepare this capability to find. So it is actually part of that which now has been found and may be appreciated for that reason.

Kind regards
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