Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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ground
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

chownah wrote:...in the sutta which I referenced its says the monk "enters and remains in" each of the four jhanas...."remains" seems to be suggesting that it is more than a momentary event....but I don't know.
chownah
Yes you are right
"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the fact that you can "remain" does not necessarily entail that the 2nd, 3rd etc moment of remaining are different from the 1st and it does not entail that it is worth to try and want to remain there.

chownah wrote: Are you suggesting that jhana is like a key to a door and once the door is unlocked it is no longer relevant?
I am suggesting that the "tour" from the 1st jhana to the 4th and further passing the formless attainments is actually a progression of "letting go". Why should one need to remain at an interstation? What would be the benefit of getting absorbed there?
If you want to travel from city A to city D and you are passing cities B and C in between, why should one buy land, build a house and start living in city B and then some years later in city C if one's goal is just city D? Why should one waste one's energy to establish a living where one did not want to stay in the first place? Isn't it better to just swiftly pass by? Isn't it better to focus on letting go instead of focusing on interstations? When progression of letting go happens the interstations will be passed by necessarily even if these are just instantaneous momentary events and there is no "remaining there".


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chownah
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by chownah »

TMingyur,
I think the questions you are asking are good ones but I don't think they address the point I'm pursuing. Perhaps they do but I'm just not seeing the connection....what I'm wanting to find out about is whether the various types of contemplations and/or activities which the suttas describe in different suttas are part of jhana or to put this another way are they happening "while under the influence of" jhana OR whether the jhana stops and the contemplations and/or activities described are not part of the jhana and consistute a distinctly different process....to put it simply...do the suttas describe a two step process with two distinct steps (i.e. first there is concentration (jhana) and then there is contemplation (not jhana)) or is there one process which continues throughout (jhana throughout) which happens in two phases (i.e. first phase is developing the concentration (like turning on the jhana I guess) and second phase is maintaining the concentration while contemplating (the jhana continues throughout this second phase).........even more simply.....is it jhana throughout or is it just jhana in the first part?
One reason I'm pursuing this is that I find that I have views about what jhana is and how it works that are probably not well founded and I'm wanting to strip off those things which are inappropriate....but I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak....for non-native English speakers "throwing out the baby with the bath water" means to discard things of value when ridding ones self of rubbish....obviously this is to be avoided.
chownah
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ground
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

Okay. I think I understand your point. My experience is that the reification of what is called "jhana" is not helpful at all but distracts from what appears more essential to me. So I completely rely on insight and do not bother about jhanas since I am convinced that jhanas are an inevitable spin-off of practicing insight. Just a minimum of concentration is required for "small" insight which then improves concentration which then "deepens" insight which in turn ....etc. where each insight is actually a step of letting go.


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chownah
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by chownah »

TMingyur,
I think we are pretty much in agreement. Perhaps what I am doing here is working on insight directed at letting go of some unfounded views of jhana.
chownah
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by DarwidHalim »

chownah wrote:It seems that quite often in the suttas there is a case of a monk going up the ladder of jhana usually to the 4th jhana and then contemplating something, something like the body internally, the body externally, the body both internally and externally for example. (This is for example only and I'm not wanting to discuss the body here unless it is necessary.) My question is whether the 4th jhana is only the first part which consists of the concentration of the mind?...or is the contemplation part which happens after the mind has achieved concentration part of the jhana too?
chownah
I think this is discussed in Ajahn Brahm book mindfulness, ....

In jhana, there is no contemplation. Based on what I know, if we try to contemplate something, we will lose our jhana.

In that book, he mentioned that entering jhana state is like how big is your momentum. Depending on your momentum, it will throw you to which jhana. That momentum is depending on your ability to 'let go' or see sunyata before entering that jhana state.

It also mentioned that You have no control in the duration of how long you will be there. It can be suddenly 3 days already or more.

I found this last part quite interesting because different school also mention it. However, that school mentioned that for beginner who just enter jhana, he cannot control the duration within that jhana state. Only very high level of practitioner can control how long he wants to be there.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
daverupa
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by daverupa »

DarwidHalim wrote:In jhana, there is no contemplation. Based on what I know, if we try to contemplate something, we will lose our jhana.
There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation.
So is contemplation equivalent to vitakka/viccara, or papanca, or something else?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by DarwidHalim »

I think the word contemplate needs to be defined very well.

Does it involve thinking or not?

Based on what I know it involves thinking process.

We can see something. Just by seeing, without thinking process, we can understand something. Like eating an orange, we do not to think or contemplate, just by chewing it, we can fully know 100% what is orange taste. Purely, nakedly, freshly, and free from labeling.

We can also contemplate something. The problem is it involves thinking process. To some extend we are playing with thoughts and concepts.

Some of us, may think contemplate doesn't need thinking process. If this is the case, I think the word contemplate can be valid.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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DarwidHalim
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by DarwidHalim »

Please go to this link:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/pdfs/Shou ... _Jhana.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are a lot of misconception actually about Jhana. Some people say Samantha Jhana. Some people say Vipassana Jhana.

For me, I belong to right Jhana is the state where it can only be achieve when Samantha + Vipassana work hand in hand. :rofl:
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
chownah
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by chownah »

I found this:
Sutta Pitaka
Samyutta Nikaya
Division III Ý Khandhaka
Book 33 Ý Jhana Samyutta
Chapter 1 Ý Jhana Vagga
At: http://realtruthlife.blogspot.com/2011/ ... jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A Portion:
"..........
33. 1. 1.

Samadhi Samapatti Ý Concentration Attainments

1. I heard thus. At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi.

2. The Blessed One addressed the monks from there:

3. ßMonks, these four develop concentration. What four?

4. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration (jhana) is clever in bringing the mind to one point (samadhi), not clever in attainments (samapatti).

5. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is clever in attainments, not clever in bringing the mind to one point.

6. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is neither clever in bringing the mind to one point nor clever in attainments.

7. ßMonks, a certain one developing concentration is clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments.

8. ßMonks, of these four developing concentration the one who is clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments is the foremost, the chief, the released, the noble, and the excellent.

9. ßJust as the cow gives milk, from milk is curd, from curd butter, from butter ghee, and from ghee the cream of ghee, in the same manner, a person clever in bringing the mind to one point and clever in attainments is the foremost, the chief, the released, the noble, and the excellent.û



( Sutta 33. 1. 1., with the indicated changes, is repeated for suttas 2. through 19.)



33. 1. 2. òhiti Ý Stability

... re ... clever in stability ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... re ...



33. 1. 3. Vuññhàna Ý Rising

re ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... clever in rising from it ...
...............
.............
..........."

Just to explain what is going on here: Section 33.1.1 gives the exact wording for Sutta #1 and it also is the general form of all of the different Suttas of Section 33.....each verse contains the same words with a different pair of characteristcs.......for example if from Section 33.1.1 you remove "in bringing the mind to one point (samadhi)" and in its place put "clever in stability " and also remove "clever in attainments (samapatti)" and in its place put "clever in bringing the mind to one point" then this will be the wording foe Section 33.1.2 which is the wording for Sutta #2. In short by replacing two phrases you generate a new Sutta.
This system goes all the way to Section 33.1.55 which means that there are 55 pair wise replacements which can be made....this seems like a really bizarre structure and I don't really understand what the point is to this because it always seems like whoever is good at both characteristics is the best of the four.....but that is not what interested me. What interests me is the idea in Section 33.1.3 which is in the quote above but I'll copy it here again:

33. 1. 3. Vuññhàna Ý Rising

re ... clever in bringing the mind to one point ... clever in rising from it ...
..............."
What interests me is the "clever in rising from it".....this suggests that there is an ability which is not developed in all meditators (I'm pretty sure they are talking about jhana here because the title of this section is "Book 33 Ý Jhana Samyutta") called "clever in rising from it".....doe anyone know what this means....or can shed any light on this. The conncection to this topic is that one view is that jhana ends before contemplation begins and if that is so then is there a stage in the jhana/contemplation process called "rising from jhana" which goes between the two? Even putting this question aside it interested me to see the different characteristics that are presented concerning jhana....many of which I never would have guessed were relevant such as "acts carefully", "clever in suitability", "clever in pasture" (which a footnote explains as being finding a suitable place), "clever in resolution"...and many more.....Also...I don't see why all of this is presented unless it is meant to be a list of important things to consider when working on perfecting jhana......what do people make of this?

Also, note that "acts carefully" might imply some physical action but maybe it means mental action?
Also, note that "clever in suitability" might be talking about a suitable theme for contemplation?
I don't know.....this group of Suttas seems very bizarre and points to stuff in a way I've never seen before........
chownah
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chownah
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by chownah »

DarwidHalim,
Great link...I haven't read all of it but it looks like it is saying that one maintains jhana while doing the contemplations....is that how you interpret it?
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

While some may say "part of jhana" and others may say "it follows jhana" jhana certainly is not liberation and contemplation isn't either.

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ground
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

This thread seems related:
Is a Teacher required to practice meditation?

Now if one follows a teacher who says "part of jhana" then one may be inclined to say "part of jhana" and practice accordingly and if one follows a teacher who says "it follows jhana" then one may be inclined to say "it follows jhana" and practice accordingly.

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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

DarwidHalim wrote:Please go to this link:

http://www.bhavanasociety.org/pdfs/Shou ... _Jhana.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Funnily enough in his dissertation Analysis of the Jhanas Bhante Henepola Gunaratana seems to be saying exactly the opposite to what he seems to be saying in the link provided by DarwidHalim as to "part of jhana or does it follow jhana?"

Analysis of the Jhanas is a very comprehensive work I would like to recommend.


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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.
Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny
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Re: Is contemplation part of jhana or does it follow jhana?

Post by ground »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.
Could you say why? It seems to me "states of absorption" is a more accurate description of jhana.

Spiny
The intended meaning was:
"absorption" is resting or dwelling in what actually isn't worth it in the context of the goal.
In contrast to this "transient momentary event" refers to the event of merely abandoning what has to abandoned anyway but then go ahead immediately instead of resting and delighting.

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