The Buddha himself was not specific about his rebirths.
He came to an understanding of the relation of rebirth and kamma only upon his awakening.
Therefore:
Don't waste time thinking about it. And don't believe any average person who says they know. They don't!
Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
How do you know that?alan wrote: And don't believe any average person who says they know. They don't!
Your emphatic "They don't" does not address the OP. It is merely your opinion, which is not related to the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
I think he was.The Buddha himself was not specific about his rebirths.
He came to an understanding of the relation of rebirth and kamma only upon his awakening.
If he thought that sansara ends with his life (no-rebirth view), then he would stay at home to be a rich and happy househoulder ,)
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
What I don't get is why there is a wish to correlate the studies of Ian Stevenson with the teachings of Buddhism. For me Buddhist practice stands up well with out the need for "scientific" validation. The kind of validation that can come from such non-mainstream views as that of Ian Stevenson can in my opinion only have the reverse of it's intended effect.
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
Hello Mr. Man,
with metta
Chris
Dr. Ian Stevenson was doing scientific research over 40 years on this subject. What do you mean by ''intended effect''?The kind of validation that can come from such non-mainstream views as that of Ian Stevenson can in my opinion only have the reverse of it's intended effect.
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
I agree.Mr Man wrote: For me Buddhist practice stands up well with out the need for "scientific" validation.
Stevenson's research has pointed to interesting phenomena that warrants a serious look, whatever the explaination. It neither proves nor disproves the Buddha's teachings, but it does not hurt to ask the question of the OP, as long as we do not get to caught in it and read more into it than is there.The kind of validation that can come from such non-mainstream views as that of Ian Stevenson can in my opinion only have the reverse of it's intended effect.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
Hi cooran & all
What I meant is when Ian Stevenson's research is used to try and validate Buddhist doctrine it often has the reverse of it's 'intended effect. I don't think it adds anything and my opinion is that it may actually take something away because from what I have observed it tends to move the debate towards a thicket of views. And although his work is interesting i personally don't think it is strongly credible, at this time.
What I meant is when Ian Stevenson's research is used to try and validate Buddhist doctrine it often has the reverse of it's 'intended effect. I don't think it adds anything and my opinion is that it may actually take something away because from what I have observed it tends to move the debate towards a thicket of views. And although his work is interesting i personally don't think it is strongly credible, at this time.
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
I agree entirely Mr Man, with each of your points. My only caveat would be that I think that you are over generous in your assessment of Stevenson's credibility.
His science stinks. It would not take a Richard Dawkins to drive a coach and several pairs of horses through it.
The only reason it has stayed relative unmauled is that no one takes it seriously enough to unload any big guns in its direction.
His science stinks. It would not take a Richard Dawkins to drive a coach and several pairs of horses through it.
The only reason it has stayed relative unmauled is that no one takes it seriously enough to unload any big guns in its direction.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
Thank you for sharing your opinion.PeterB wrote:I agree entirely Mr Man, with each of your points. My only caveat would be that I think that you are over generous in your assessment of Stevenson's credibility.
His science stinks. It would not take a Richard Dawkins to drive a coach and several pairs of horses through it.
The only reason it has stayed relative unmauled is that no one takes it seriously enough to unload any big guns in its direction.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
Anytime...
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
One inconvenient issue that is usually omitted in any Buddhist discussion of Stevenson is the fact that the data that he claims to produce supports the idea of Hindu type Reincarnation....including a " carrying forward " of various physical characteristics.... that are at odds with the Buddhist concept of Punabhava.
He is actually positing the reincarnation of an atman.
He is actually positing the reincarnation of an atman.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
But that does not negate what is actual interest, the accounts themselves.PeterB wrote:One inconvenient issue that is usually omitted in any Buddhist discussion of Stevenson is the fact that the data that he claims to produce supports the idea of Hindu type Reincarnation....including a " carrying forward " of various physical characteristics.... that are at odds with the Buddhist concept of Punabhava.
He is actually positing the reincarnation of an atman.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
For many it is interesting to find stories of reincarnation, to study stories of reincarnation, to delight in stories of reincarnation........but is this going to help us to reach the goal?....is this skillful?......it can be if one observes this finding, studying, and delighting as it arises and as a result comes to grip with this doctrine of self.....I guess.....
chownah
chownah
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
From my limited understanding, the Buddha talked about wrong view and how it is a hindrance on the path:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Twe ... DES6VWl1MC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope this helps. I have one of Ian Stevenson's book and I found it to be quite compelling, I hope those who are on the forum who are doubtful can read it."And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...
"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
http://books.google.com/books/about/Twe ... DES6VWl1MC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas
Yes, indeed - doubting in rebirth means that your Right View factor is not yet complete.