Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:55 pm

I don't believe it, or not-believe it. But I do think the Buddha taught it, and for good reasons which become clear when you study the Suttas. There are tools for investigating experience taught within the Suttas as well which yield more immediate fruit other than the awareness of punabbhava.

In my opinion, believing and not-believing are mental habits and lazy ones at that. It's a way to stop learning by simply generalizing experience. Easy enough to fall into but also fairly easy to break when you catch yourself doing it.

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by DNS » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:51 pm

PeterB wrote: Which is I think what lies behind the refusal of those Ajahns to comment directly on the issue...they think that the vital thing is the practice and that the rest can wait.
Which Ajahns? Many do talk about rebirth (not making a value judgment, just noting that there are Ajahns who talk about rebirth).

Ajahn Brahm talks of rebirth and has praised Ian Stevenson's work:

http://www.understandwisdom.com/ajahn-b ... carnation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other videos too, of Ajahn Brahm praising Ian Stevenson's works. (Again, not saying if this is good or bad, just noting).

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:28 pm

I was thinking of Ajahns Sumedho and Munindo who I had mentioned earlier David.

:anjali:

santa100
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:58 pm

I'm sure the Ajahns' insight is quite helpful, but if we can get the insight directly from the Buddha, wouldn't that be even better? For those who haven't read MN60, I'd strongly recommend this wonderful sutta in which the great Teacher analyzed in detail various "hot" topics like rebirth, kamma, etc..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:07 pm

santa100 wrote:I'm sure the Ajahns' insight is quite helpful, but if we can get the insight directly from the Buddha, wouldn't that be even better?
Something told to you, instead of you experiencing it for yourself isn't an insight.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by santa100 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:18 pm

Well, dont' forget the 3-step approach: read/listen ---> think/contemplate ---> practice. The suttas are there for a purpose..

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Jhana4 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:22 pm

Don't forget that history is filled with religions making stories up to deceive people and for people to deceive themselves. Evidence is the only thing that makes something true.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

santa100
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:08 am

Jhana4 wrote:
Don't forget that history is filled with religions making stories up to deceive people and for people to deceive themselves. Evidence is the only thing that makes something true.
Have you read MN60? Are you saying MN60 and other suttas the products of "religions making stories up"?

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:28 am

No disrespect, but it seems that you might not understand the problems with circular reasoning
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

santa100
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:20 am

No disrespect, you need to back up what you claim..

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by PeterB » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:16 am

No disrespect, what people need to do is find out for themselves on the cushion, with guidance.
The Dhamma is not a debating society or lab where the issues are peer reviewed.

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:00 am

santa100 wrote:No disrespect, you need to back up what you claim..
Continuing with complete respect, I haven't made any claims, you have -- that there is some truth in the suttas that a person can accept as true, just because they are in the suttas. Since I am not making a claim, I have nothing to back up. Since you are making a claim, you have something to back up. Have a good week.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

santa100
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by santa100 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:52 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
I haven't made any claims, you have -- that there is some truth in the suttas that a person can accept as true, just because they are in the suttas. Since I am not making a claim, I have nothing to back up. Since you are making a claim, you have something to back up
It's not my claim. I simply restated most of Buddhist masters and scholars' view that the Pali Canon although not a 100% the work of the Buddha, but is the closest source available to date about His Teaching. Now, you did suggest that it was the work of a "religion making stories up", and so I need to clarify this point with you, and ask you if indeed you think it is the case, and if so, why..

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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by ancientbuddhism » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:41 pm

All Due Respect ...
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Post by Jhana4 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:33 pm

Eh, not everyone watched The Sopranos so they might not appreciate the reference. I haven't but have seen enough mafia movies. Good try :-), .......forget about it!
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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