Unorthodox Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:For whom Tilt ?
You had better tell THEM that. They would gently and politely beg to differ.
I must have attended several hundred hours of teachings by various Forest Ajahns including Ajahn Sumedho and I dont recall them referring to the Suttas at all.
Which is, of course, not at all true, as is evidenced in this very thread:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 31#p149595" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But Sylverster is correct, Ven Amaro clearly screwed up in talking about atthi.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

The fact that I attended hundreds of hours of teachings from Forest Sangha Ajahns and that during those teachings they did not refer to the Sutta is pretty much the case. I never claimed that none of them ever refer to the Suttas.

Whether Ajahn Amaro made a slip in the Pali in the context of this thread which is actually about a member asking if he was practising unorthodox Vipassana or orthodox Dzogchen is not of much consequence in the context of the thread in my opinion.
Sacha G
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Sacha G »

Thanks guys for all the interesting comments.
Actually I consider myself a disciple of Ajahn Amaro. I didn't know he was so welcoming to this idea of unconditioned awareness.( I knew Luang Po Sumedho was however).
So I might not be mistaken after all.
Thanks
Sacha
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

I dont think you are mistaken at all Sacha.
Nyana
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Nyana »

PeterB wrote:What this illustrates vividly is the fact that the Forest Tradition is rooted in the experiential...not in the Sutta tradition.
As such they feel able to tale liberties with the Pali. They bend it to reflect experience rather than use language to create a model of anticipated experience.
Indeed. It's unfortunate when some get stuck on the letter and miss the meaning.
PeterB wrote:Their approach is like or not, radically experiential. As such they are true heirs to Ajahns Mun and Chah.
And the samaṇa Gotama.

All the best,

Geoff
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
PeterB wrote:What this illustrates vividly is the fact that the Forest Tradition is rooted in the experiential...not in the Sutta tradition.
As such they feel able to tale liberties with the Pali. They bend it to reflect experience rather than use language to create a model of anticipated experience.
Indeed. It's unfortunate when some get stuck on the letter and miss the meaning.
PeterB wrote:Their approach is like or not, radically experiential. As such they are true heirs to Ajahns Mun and Chah.
And the samaṇa Gotama.

All the best,

Geoff
So, meaning be damned? I am certainly not questioning the experiential basis of of the venerables, but they are not scholar and practitioner monks, and maybe sometimes some of them should not pontificate on matters of Pali grammar and textual subtleties in which they really do not have an expertise.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:So, meaning be damned? I am certainly not questioning the experiential basis of of the venerables, but they are not scholar/practitioner monks, and maybe sometimes some of them should not pontificate on matters of Pali grammar and textual subtleties in which they really do not have an expertise.
Working through the subtleties of textual comparison to make the connections between the Pāli dhamma and appropriate Mahāyāna texts in order to discuss the continuities and discontinuities between the Theravāda texts, the Theravāda Thai forest tradition, and the dzogchen view, takes considerable effort on its own. There are very few people in this world sufficiently qualified in all of these areas. People like Amaro and Goldstein are trying to bridge the gap, but there is clearly still some way to go in order to communicate this level of practice.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, meaning be damned? I am certainly not questioning the experiential basis of of the venerables, but they are not scholar/practitioner monks, and maybe sometimes some of them should not pontificate on matters of Pali grammar and textual subtleties in which they really do not have an expertise.
Working through the subtleties of textual comparison to make the connections between the Pāli dhamma and appropriate Mahāyāna texts in order to discuss the continuities and discontinuities between the Theravāda texts, the Theravāda Thai forest tradition, and the dzogchen view, takes considerable effort on its own. There are very few people in this world sufficiently qualified in all of these areas. People like Amaro and Goldstein are trying to bridge the gap, but there is clearly still some way to go in order to communicate this level of practice.
I am far more kindly disposed toward Goldstein than Ven Amaro, given that Goldstein is well versed in the Pali textual traditions of Theravada is far less likely to make the sort of mistake Ven Amaro did.

But recognizing the difficultly of the of the enterprise of "Working through the subtleties of textual comparison to make the connections between the Pāli dhamma and appropriate Mahāyāna texts in order to discuss the continuities and discontinuities between the Theravāda texts, Theravāda Thai forest tradition, and the dzogchen view" one should not suggest a lack of insight because someone takes exception to how a Pali text or term is handled by Ven Amaro. If there is going to be a meaning exploration of the and discontinuities between the Pali/Theravada and other schools of Buddhism, it would do well to really have a strong handle on the texts and terminology that is being employed.

Like anyone else, the Forest Tradition monks are not above or beyond criticism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Nyana
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:If there is going to be a meaning exploration of the and discontinuities between the Pali/Theravada and other schools of Buddhism, it would do well to really have a strong handle on the texts and terminology that is being employed.
And there are very few people in a qualified position to do this at this time.
tiltbillings wrote:Like anyone else, the Forest Tradition monks are not above or beyond criticism.
Of course.
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mikenz66
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by mikenz66 »

This is a very interesting and important conversation that goes to the heart of Dhamma practice.

I've certainly got a lot more from instruction by those (famous or not) who have clearly walked the path than from studying minute details of suttas and commentaries. On the other hand, that material that has been preserved from ancient times does provide an important "reality check". So it is a little disappointing to find what appear to be rather elementary errors in a written document that purports to be a careful analysis of texts.

However, the chances that any analytical work is entirely free of errors is rather small, so perhaps we should recognize that there seems to be an error in this case and move on.


:anjali:
Mike
Nyana
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:So it is a little disappointing to find what appear to be rather elementary errors in a written document that purports to be a careful analysis of texts.
I agree. Teachers should always aspire to up their game. And FTR, I've been quite critical of the texts of a couple teachers from the Thai forest tradition in the past. Of course, the vast majority of monastics in the Thai forest tradition aren't scholars, and don't claim to be.

All the best,

Geoff
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ground
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by ground »

Sacha G wrote:Thanks guys for all the interesting comments.
Actually I consider myself a disciple of Ajahn Amaro. I didn't know he was so welcoming to this idea of unconditioned awareness.( I knew Luang Po Sumedho was however).
So I might not be mistaken after all.
There is mistake only if you separate from what is taught in the suttas while striving for the "nibbana" that is taugth in the suttas. IMO you may add what you like but if there is preference of what you add over what is taught in the suttas then you are mistaken. Why? Because everything you add should be measured from a sutta point of view if you are striving for the "nibbana" that is taugth in the suttas.


Kind regards
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

" Nibbana is here and now. It is very simple. It is beyond description. It cant be bestowed or conveyed. It can only be known by each person for themselves. The problem is that we prefer ideas about Nibbana. Talking about Nibbana is less threatening to us than seeing its simplicity and immediacy. "


Luang Por Sumedho.

" We can spend a whole life time getting ready for the dance. We can get everything lined up and ready to go.We can make sure that our mental tuxedo is immaculate. We can spend so long at it that before the cab can turn up to take us to the ball the hearse gets to the house first. "

Ajahn Munindo.
PeterB
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by PeterB »

bodom wrote:Ajahn Sumedho speaks on the practice of noticing the "space" between thoughts here:

Noticing Space
http://www.meditationthailand.com/noticingsumedho.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
I thought this worth bumping not only for the link to an excellent teaching from Luang Por Sumedho, but also for your wonderful quote from Ajahn Buddhadasa in your sig Bodom. Which dovetails nicely ..
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bodom
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Re: Unorthodox Vipassana

Post by bodom »

PeterB wrote:
bodom wrote:Ajahn Sumedho speaks on the practice of noticing the "space" between thoughts here:

Noticing Space
http://www.meditationthailand.com/noticingsumedho.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
I thought this worth bumping not only for the link to an excellent teaching from Luang Por Sumedho, but also for your wonderful quote from Ajahn Buddhadasa in your sig Bodom. Which dovetails nicely ..
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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