Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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christopher:::
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by christopher::: »

pink_trike wrote:
For me, pleasure-seeking was a very fine Dharma teacher. The more I indulged, the more clear the Dharma became.

"Sometimes we need to get things totally wrong, before we can understand how to do them right." - Christopher:::
:buddha1: :anjali: :buddha1:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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zavk
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by zavk »

Hi all,

On the question of the modern concept of individualism--there's no straightforward way to account for it but it really gained momentum in the 18th century, which saw the emergence of liberalism and the political philosophy of libertarianism, and which crystallised in events such as the American War of Independence and the French Revolution. So to an extent, it can be said that this supposed 'malady' of individualism is the price we pay for 'liberty' (as it has been conceived in the West).

In any case, philosophers, social commentators, and cultural critics of the 20th century have noted a marked 'subjective turn' in culture and society (they are referring to Western societies in most instances but in the present age of globalisation this can be extended to many non-Western contexts). As I understand it, there is something promising about this, for this process of 'subjectivization' isn't the same as 'individualism'. The growing interest in 'spirituality over religion' can be seen as a manifestation of this subjectivization process--indeed, the growing interest in the West in contemplative traditions like Buddhism can be seen as a manifestation of this 'subjective turn'. But the challenge, of course, is how this 'inward turn' might reach its fullest potential, for I do believe that it can undercut atomistic individualism.

Best wishes,
zavk
Last edited by zavk on Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
With metta,
zavk
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Rui Sousa
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by Rui Sousa »

christopher::: wrote: Well, I am neither an historian or a certified scholar of such things, so I can't say my view is correct, but I think we can trace at least some aspects of current global "individualistic" trends back to 1776 and the birth of America's ideals of freedom, independence and the pursuit of happiness.

Check out the Transcendental poets, like Walt Whitman. Read Mark Twain's Huck Finn. Look at the explosion of youth culture, jazz music and such in the 1920s- right after women are given the right to vote. Next the Beat generation, roaming the roads of America, very much in the Whitman/Huck Finn tradition. Sexual exploration, drugs, total freedom. All this explodes in the 1960s with the counterculture, the hippies... sexual revolution, 1970s....
I am aware that Americans see their own country in that way, but if you look at others countries' history you will be surprised to see that the ideas of individual freedom, independence and pursuit of happiness are not American innovations, as Mike as already pointed out for the women right to vote.

Individual freedom and independence can be traced back to ancient Greece, and they went even further on their idea of freedom, they would elect their military leaders while on campaign, and major decisions had to be defended on a global assembly where the general had to make his point in front of every soldier. Can you imagine that on an modern army? Did you know that the Athenians considered voting as an anti-democratic system for choosing citizens to play public administration roles?

I don't want to lessen American values, just pointing out that human history is not an upward curve since pre-historic times, there are ups and downs for every aspect on society, and in many aspects we are today on the down side.

My point is that what happens today happened many times before in history, and it has to do with greed.
With Metta
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christopher:::
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by christopher::: »

Modern trends of individualism and democracy do indeed have deep roots, Rui, yes. They lead back to Greece and Rome, probably also to Moses, to the teachings of Jesus (with his emphasis on individuals all being equal in the eyes of God). The men who drew up the founding documents of the U.S. were also inspired by a number of American Indian tribes, especially the Confederacy of the Iroquois Indians.

Iroquois Confederacy

Forgotten Founders: Benjamin Franklin, the Iroquois and the Rationale for the American Revolution (excerpt)
Last edited by christopher::: on Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
phil wrote:
Something like the Barrie Center (?) in the States that has promotoed Theravada in an admittedly watered-down version over the last 20 years through its lay teachers such as Joseph Goldstein etc.
Watered-down in the same way that babies are fed watered-down food (jars of baby food), that are no less beneficial than solid food. Jack and Joseph are bringing the Dharma to people in a way that they can absorb it. Many will move on to solid food.
There are a number of things that can be said about Jack Kornfield both good and bad, but Joseph Goldstein is a highly experienced teacher of considerable depth and skill.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

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tiltbillings wrote:
There are a number of things that can be said about Jack Kornfield both good and bad, but Joseph Goldstein is a highly experienced teacher of considerable depth and skill.
Related topic: Joseph Goldstein: One Dharma

:smile:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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mikenz66
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote: There are a number of things that can be said about Jack Kornfield both good and bad, but Joseph Goldstein is a highly experienced teacher of considerable depth and skill.
I agree. Josesph Goldstein (along with Steve Armstrong, Patrick Kearney, and presumably others who I don't know about) are examples of lay teachers and are definitely not Dhamma Lite.

Metta
Mike
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by nathan »

Some of the earliest known extent writing, in Sumerian cuneiform if I recall correctly, bemoans the corruption of the youth. Also, interestingly, omits to bemoan by whom the youth are corrupted if I recall correctly.
:thinking:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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phil
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by phil »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
phil wrote:
Something like the Barrie Center (?) in the States that has promotoed Theravada in an admittedly watered-down version over the last 20 years through its lay teachers such as Joseph Goldstein etc.
Watered-down in the same way that babies are fed watered-down food (jars of baby food), that are no less beneficial than solid food. Jack and Joseph are bringing the Dharma to people in a way that they can absorb it. Many will move on to solid food.
There are a number of things that can be said about Jack Kornfield both good and bad, but Joseph Goldstein is a highly experienced teacher of considerable depth and skill.
Hi titbillings.

I was thinking this after I posted. I mentioned Goldstein, as it happens, because I couldn't remember Jack Kornfield's name. Goldstein is very good, and let's just say Kornfield is good and leave it there. :smile:

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by rowyourboat »

I have heard that in sri lanka there has been a bit of an explosion of sorts of dhamma- many meditation centres opening and young people going on retreat - this is all after the Burmese ambasador introduced the Mahasi sayadaw method of vipassana to sri lanka inthe 1950s. -at the same time westernisation is taking place rapidly- i think sustainable forms of buddhism must arise inthe west- some of these might inspire westernised populations of the east, while traditional methods gain in strength as well. Goenka has been a boon to the world because he managed to reach populations which had no idea of buddhism -and is reaching the non-traditional buddhist (in the east) pracitioner. because of the internet i think buddhism has become truly international and communication is possible- good things will come out of it- it is less suseptible to extinction because of this. we can never hope that buddhism can become so widespread as other religions- it is going against the stream- not easy -the buddha almost didnt teach it to the world because it was so profound and difficult- but he did- because there will always be a hnadful that will take to it like ducks to water.. if buddhism is promoted by a government then great explosions of dhamma can happen...
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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pink_trike
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by pink_trike »

rowyourboat wrote:.. if buddhism is promoted by a government then great explosions of dhamma can happen...
Slippery slope, with unpredictable results.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by Cittasanto »

pink_trike wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:.. if buddhism is promoted by a government then great explosions of dhamma can happen...
Slippery slope, with unpredictable results.
Yes I think the queen of Thailand said it best
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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rowyourboat
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Re: Challenges Facing Asian Buddhism in the Modern World

Post by rowyourboat »

Manapa wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:.. if buddhism is promoted by a government then great explosions of dhamma can happen...
Slippery slope, with unpredictable results.
Yes I think the queen of Thailand said it best
really what did she say?

I know that buddhism might not have survived today if it had not been for King Ashokha in ancient India who sent emissaries to various countries bearing the dhamma- the tipitaka survived in sri lanka and was sent to the rest of the world because of this.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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