Fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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DNS
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DNS » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:34 pm

Sarakaani was known for his alcohol drinking. When the Buddha proclaimed him to be a sotapanna, some monks remarked:
"A fine thing, a marvelous thing! Nowadays anyone can become a Stream-Winner, if the Blessed One has proclaimed Sarakaani who died to be Stream-Winner... assured of enlightenment! Why, Sarakaani failed in his training and took to drink!"
Apparently, sarcasm was in use at the time of the Buddha. :tongue:

But the Buddha declared,
"Mahaanaama, Sarakaani the Sakyan fulfilled the training at the time of death."
The lay person Sarakani practiced the moral precepts in full before his death, thus, confirming that one cannot be a stream-entrant or higher if one violates the precepts.

SN 55.24

PeterB
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:38 pm

I have no doubt at all that I am non-virtuous and definitely not on the path to stream entry. So thats a relief all round. :smile:

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by octathlon » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:55 pm

PeterB wrote:
octathlon wrote:If you have no addiction or attachment to alcohol, the 5th precept should be the easiest one of all to follow. So why not just do that, regardless of whether you perceive drinking as affecting your mindfulness or not. It seems like the Buddha must have considered it to be pretty important, to put in the top 5. (Or, maybe it was just meant for some people, the ones whose mindfulness is affected by it? Let's see if I can find where it says that in the Suttas... :reading: )
If you do then you do find anything in the Suttas, then apply it to yourself. You will not find anthing that I havent considered.
Even if you found a Sutta passage that says " and in particular PeterB should not have an occasional glass of wine " I would still reserve the right to form my own judgement thank you Shakyamuni, as I am not you and you are not me.And you live in an ancient culture which in general terms is life negative. And you are not a god.
Now, please tell me what you think about the Bhumis. Thats your forte.

:anjali:
Ahem, to be clear, I have no desire to influence you in any way and I'm not passing judgement on you whatsoever for choosing not to take the 5th precept. Please choose one of the following emoticons to apply to that :lol: , :roll: , :heart: according to your preferred way of reacting.

However, what I posted is the attitude that I personally take towards the precepts, and I believe that I'm allowed to share my opinion on here just like everyone else. Also, I don't pretend to successfully keep them all the time--not by a long shot, breaking them either through carelessness or even intentionally through temptation. But since I took the 5 precepts I do try to keep them and like most Buddhists here, I don't think I'm wise enough to casually dismiss any of them as no longer relevant or some other reason.

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:02 pm

I do take the precept. I dont consider myself to be in breach of it.
But likewise I would never encourage anyone to emulate me in anything at all.
I am entirely without wisdom.....seriously.

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by octathlon » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:05 am

All I can say is that if I had an alcoholic drink I would consider it as a violation of the 5th precept.

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:50 am

So dont...... :smile:

:anjali:

Dont do as I do, and dont do as I say. Do what seems right to you after mature reflection.

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by Dhammakamo » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:30 am

Greetings,

the 5th precept is the triumph card of the all 5-precepts, As it is to prevent one from heedlessness. Breaking the 5th precept will result in a downfall and breaking of the other 4 precepts due to the lack of mindfulness.

The popular question is "can I just have a glass/bottle on special occasions or gatherings? I won't even feel tipsy at all, it works like a cigarette to me."

The simple answer from ajahns : I didn't say that you can't, but I didn't encourage you either.
"When an evil-man, seeing you practise goodness, comes and maticiously insults you, you should patiently endure it and not feel angry with him, for the evil-man is insulting himself by trying to insult you" - The Buddha

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Re: Fifth precept

Post by PeterB » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:35 am

Having a glass of wine occasionally has never been the cause my breaking any of the other precepts.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:02 am

I do not know whether buddhist precept make you feel like you are in jail or not.

If we have a duality mindset, we will have a concept of right is always right. Wrong is always wrong.

But reality is not like that. One thing can be right, can be wrong, can be neutral, can be half right, can be half wrong, can be anything. You claim it, you get it.

Reality cannot be describe. That is why whatever you describe, it is not absolute. It is relative, relative to your opinion.

Regarding drinking beer, I do not know whether you ever read the life history of Milarepa, the great yogic of TIbet. His teacher, Marpa, drinks beer on many occasion. It doesn't matter.

If you read another Indian buddhist mahasiddha called Tilopa. He stayed at the bank of river and eat fish. He kills the fish and eat the meat. He even worked in the prostitute house.

A lot of their actions seems breaking all buddhist vows. If we take the buddhist vows literally, definitely it breaks it. But, what is the use of that vows? It is to guide us to see realize reality.

The action of killing is considered bad. This itself is not true. There is nothing can be absolute true or not. Reality is free from wrong or right. In previous Siddharta Gautama life, he has to killed 1 person in the ship, because that person wanted to kill all passengers in the boat. His motivation is by killing this guy, he will be saved from his sins killing so many people. Killing 1 person will already give you bad karma. So, killing around 499 persons, definitely it will be much heavier. But because of his compassion to save this guy from experiencing bad karma, this killer get a lot of good karma. The story is action is free from anything. It is the motivation that determine, whether it is good or bad.

There is a debate about the issue of drinking beer. Some people say if you drink beer, but you don't get drunk, it is ok. Some people say you cannot drink no matter what is the reason.

In my personal opinion, I do not agree with all these. In any situation, no matter how sinful it looks like, if we are skillful that situation can become our best method of enlightnment. Similarly, no matter how good the situation is, if we are unskillful, that situation can send us to the hell.

If you drink a beer and you are mindful and you are really mindful to understand the essenceless of the joy from drinking your beer (for example), in my opinion you are very skillful in developing your understanding of wisdom. In my opinion, it is wholesome.

Even though you drink until you want to get drunk or vomit and if you still can be mindful and from that vomitting and mindfulness you can experience directly the essenceless of all this activity, it is a good technique to learn buddhadharma.

We need to be realistic as well. How good is your understanding of buddha dharma. If we just a baby who learn buddhadharma, may be we should refrain it because we won't have power to control our mind yet. But, once you feel you can control your mind, sometimes this kind of "bad" action can become your best teacher.

Buddha dharma is everywhere. In the beer, in the hell, in the tree, in everywhere.

If you are skillful, you will enrich you understanding and reach your own buddhahood.

If you are unskill, even reading buddha dharma can send you to the hell.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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cooran
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by cooran » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:23 am

Hello DarwidHalim,
The action of killing is considered bad. This itself is not true. There is nothing can be absolute true or not. Reality is free from wrong or right. In previous Siddharta Gautama life, he has to killed 1 person in the ship, because that person wanted to kill all passengers in the boat. His motivation is by killing this guy, he will be saved from his sins killing so many people. Killing 1 person will already give you bad karma. So, killing around 499 persons, definitely it will be much heavier. But because of his compassion to save this guy from experiencing bad karma, this killer get a lot of good karma. The story is action is free from anything. It is the motivation that determine, whether it is good or bad.
This is not correct. The Jataka Tales are NOT Buddhavacana – only the Verses are. None of the Verses suggest that killing can be excused at any time or for any reason.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:32 am

Well, I hope the message that I want to deliver is correct.

In study buddhism I notice that many of us try to look for reference. Well, that is good. But, that action itself can hinder us to really rely on our ability to see reality.

You can find that article in the book "Liberation in your palm" by Pabongka Rinpoche.

Or in recent talk by Dalai Lama in this link.
http://dalailama.com/webcasts/post/206- ... heast-asia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you saying that killing is ALWAYS wrong?
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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cooran
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Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Fifth precept

Post by cooran » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:34 am

Hello DarwidHalim,

Much as I respect the Dalai Lama - and I have received teachings from him when he came to Australia - this is a Theravada list and the Teachings of the Buddha take precedence over all.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Fifth precept

Post by DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:39 am

Well, although this is a Theravada list. I look at the Theravada objective which to make us become a buddha.

It is us human you make buddha dharma become Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, or Zen, or etc.

Buddha's life history doesn't belong to Theravada. Doesn't belong to Mahayana. Doesn't belong to Vajrayana. Doesn't belong to anything.

When Vajrayana teacher tell buddha life, that story doesn't automatically belong to Vajrayana.

It also doesn't belong to Theravada.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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