Levels of accomplishment?

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kc2dpt
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by kc2dpt » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:07 pm

If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm

Hi Peter
Peter wrote:If the eliminated fetters were marked in each column, one might make the mistake of thinking the same fetter has to be eliminated over and over again, up to 4 times. :shrug: So there's room for confusion no matter how you do it. The best thing to do is what you did: ask. :)
or have an explanation on the chart? sometimes it is easier to explain than assume prior knowledge on the matter.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by kc2dpt » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:52 am

One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:18 am

Peter wrote:One cannot guess ahead of time all the ways someone will be confused.
suppose that is why an explanatory note is common practice if not on the chart within the text which links to it or before it.
A common example would be

Chart 3 (page 154) shows which factors are removed at each level, and unique to that level

but back to the topic may be best
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

rowyourboat
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:01 pm

Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:49 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
Yes, there are quite a few classifying schemes. The Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (translated by B.C. Law as Designation of Human Types) is a useful source for these, most of them taken from the Anguttara Nikaya.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Element

Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Element » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:57 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.

Individual
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Individual » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:30 pm

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Isnt there another way of talking of attainment as well: dhamma follower, faith follower etc?
From the Alagaddupama Sutta.
42. "Monks, this Teaching so well proclaimed by me, is plain, open, explicit, free of patchwork. In this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork; for those who are arahants, free of taints, who have accomplished and completed their task, have laid down the burden, achieved their aim, severed the fetters binding to existence, who are liberated by full knowledge, there is no (future) round of existence that can be ascribed to them.

43. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned the five lower fetters will all be reborn spontaneously (in the Pure Abodes) and there they will pass away finally, no more returning from that world.

44. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters and have reduced greed, hatred and delusion, are all once-returners, and, returning only once to this world, will then make an end of suffering.

45. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those monks who have abandoned three fetters, are all stream-enterers, no more liable to downfall, assured, and headed for full Enlightenment.

46. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit, and free of patchwork, those monks who are Dhamma followers, mature in faith, are all headed for full Enlightenment.

47. "Monks, in this Teaching that is so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who are faith followers, who simply have faith in me, simply love for me, are all destined for heaven."

48. This said the Blessed One. Satisfied, the monks rejoiced in the words of the Blessed One.
Very interesting!

I notice, by the way, that "Dhamma followers," are themselves "mature in faith." So, it's not that Dhamma followers lack faith, but that their faith is well-developed.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by andyebarnes67 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:20 pm

I have always felt there to be a close correlation between the four levels - stream winner, once returner, non-return and Arahant to the Jhanas.
Does anyone more knowledgeable have any views/references for or against this view?
(Moderators, you might think this worth re posting as a new thread somewhere. If so, please do and just let me know here. Thanks.)
Metta
:meditate:
Andy Barnes
My comments are by nature, subjective interpretations from my mind. As such, they are never wrong, They are as they are. They are never right, They are as they are.

2600htz
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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by 2600htz » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:04 pm

andyebarnes67 wrote:I have always felt there to be a close correlation between the four levels - stream winner, once returner, non-return and Arahant to the Jhanas.
Does anyone more knowledgeable have any views/references for or against this view?
(Moderators, you might think this worth re posting as a new thread somewhere. If so, please do and just let me know here. Thanks.)
Hello:

There isn´t a close correlation between the four levels of enlightment and the jhanas.

AN 11.17 - A person can attain Arahanship just having the first jhana
"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.
SN 12.70 - A group of Arahants unable to experience arupa jhanas
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
The Life of Sariputta - Sariputta attaining stream-entry without jhana
"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."[2]
Upon hearing the first two lines, Upatissa became established in the Path of stream-entry, and to the ending of the last two lines he already listened as a stream-winner.
In the Susima Sutta, Susima asks the Buddha how can a person can become an arahant and still not experience every jhana there is. The Buddha answered: "First, Susima, there is the knowledge of the regularity of the Dhamma [dependent co-arising], after which there is the knowledge of Unbinding."

So basically its saying u just need to see and understand dependent co-arising to become enlightened.

Regards.

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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by CedarTree » Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:33 am

andyebarnes67 wrote:I have always felt there to be a close correlation between the four levels - stream winner, once returner, non-return and Arahant to the Jhanas.
Does anyone more knowledgeable have any views/references for or against this view?
(Moderators, you might think this worth re posting as a new thread somewhere. If so, please do and just let me know here. Thanks.)
Elaborate more.


Practice, Practice, Practice


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Re: Levels of accomplishment?

Post by Annatar » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:49 pm

There are actually four PAIRS of Noble Persons.
Those who have attained stream-entry, once returner, non-returner, and arahat, are Noble Persons.
Also those who are training for the realization of these fruits are Noble Persons.

With metta,
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