First Jhana...a description

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Re: access concentration?

Post by Cittasanto »

Prasadachitta wrote:Hi All,

Im wondering if there is a Sutta source for the state which Manapa mentions called "access concentration". I am aware of a whole spectrum of deepening meditative absorption. In my experience it is not a two dimensional progression because many positive factors progress and recede in varying degrees. This is why I ask. If there is some description of a state which is approaching jhana but discerned from it in a helpful manner by the Buddha as recorded in the Suttas, then it might help me navigate my progression into states conducive to awakening.


Thanks

Prasadachitta
They are from the commentaries, but they have a use in describing pre-jhana stages, so I use them in that regard, but they can be infered to a degree as in the factors are present or the concentration is strong but it is not quite jhana, or it is samadhi (as in the training/forest monastic use of the term).
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

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chownah wrote:Manapa,
Thanks for the link....I went there and found a reference to MN111 which I found at accesstoinsight and I found this:
""There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

This seems to indicate that there can be a variety of mental activities happening within the first jhana....including contact, feeling, perception, and intention. It seems from this that walking meditation might be possible while in first jhana as pretty much all that is required for walking seems to be included.....I'm wondering if many people consider that the conditions necessary for entering first jhana to be what all that is possible while in jhana....I'm starting to be of the view that the conditions for entering are more restrictive but once attained it can be maintained through quite a bit of mental activity....but of course the mind must be very focused so the quality of the mental activity would be quite different from what we do in our usual mode of being.
chownah
Hi Chownah,
mental activities or mental qualities, there is a difference!
I would be reluctant to say Jhana and walking meditation are compatible as I certainly don't know of any textual reference to it and all the descriptions describe sitting practice, but I maybe wrong.

but does it matter what you call the state if you are finding the state useful in developing upon the path?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa wrote: Hi Chownah,
mental activities or mental qualities, there is a difference!
I would be reluctant to say Jhana and walking meditation are compatible as I certainly don't know of any textual reference to it and all the descriptions describe sitting practice, but I maybe wrong.

but does it matter what you call the state if you are finding the state useful in developing upon the path?
Manapa,
There is a difference in modern Engish betweent qualities and activities....it's hard to know just where the description of first jhana falls with respect to them....I think the bias for translators and interpretors has been to use the more passive term in that traditionally most meditators do it very passively while on the cushion....consider that although it calls them "qualities" it indicates that they "arise": "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose ".........doesn't it seem that if directed thought, evaluatin, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence and mindfulness can arise then something besides passively sitting might provide the setting for the arising?....it seems to me that in first jhana some of these are unlikely to arise in isolation...like feeling without contact or perception without contact and feeling....etc. Of course I might be completely wrong about this but it does look like alot more is happening in first jhana than what many people suggest...I'm getting the idea that many people take the method for entering first jhana to be its entirety whereas the sutta seems to indicate that after entering first jhana the mind gets fairly busy.....

Believe me, I am not WORRIED about whether any meditative experience is jhana or not....the tradition I come from practices sitting meditation (mosty breathing meditation)for the purpose of supporting off cushion meditative practice....I have found the practice very effective in bringing meditative and contemplative practice right into daily life but it takes a long time before this happens (years)....most of my introspective practice that I do has developed from that practice....the sitting breath meditation is my main connection to Buddhist meditative practice in that it is pretty much identical to what many Buddhist teachers teach. My mindfulness and insight practice comes from mostly off the cushion so it may be helpful for me if I can make some connections between what I experience and what the Buddha teaches. Other things the Buddha teaches are very familiar to me in that pretty much identical concepts were taught before...although they were taught in different ways and forms than what the Buddha is recorded to have taught....I see no real disonance between what the Buddha seems to have taught and what I have been taught.
Anyway....I am not overly concerned about the label "jhana" and am certainly not clinging to "jhana"...I'm just trying to make connections to help me progress on the path.....
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

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"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry for a digression from the OP.

Seems that all the jhana levels starting from the 1st level of form to the formless dimension of nothingness, there is awareness/knowing of arising & passing away ie. vipassana element. The remaining levels are not accompanied by this awareness. It is only after emerging from these states that the meditator reflects on the rise & fall phenomena.

Also that attaining the cessation of feeling & perception [nirodha samapatti] is synonymous to attaining nibbana (He discerned that 'There is no further escape).
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Re: access concentration?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Manapa wrote:
They are from the commentaries, but they have a use in describing pre-jhana stages, so I use them in that regard, but they can be infered to a degree as in the factors are present or the concentration is strong but it is not quite jhana, or it is samadhi (as in the training/forest monastic use of the term).
Thanks Manapa,

Can you give or point me to a brief description of what is meant by access concentration? Im interested in any details.

Metta

Prasadachitta
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry for a digression from the OP.

Seems that all the jhana levels starting from the 1st level of form to the formless dimension of nothingness, there is awareness/knowing of arising & passing away ie. vipassana element. The remaining levels are not accompanied by this awareness. It is only after emerging from these states that the meditator reflects on the rise & fall phenomena.

Also that attaining the cessation of feeling & perception [nirodha samapatti] is synonymous to attaining nibbana (He discerned that 'There is no further escape).
pegembara,
I guess from what you've shown my idea that perhaps first jhana can happen while walking can be extended all the way up the line of jhanas all the way to and including the dimension of nothingness.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Prasadachitta,
Not a commentary....but its something.
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... ration.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Three Levels of Concentration
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
April 14,

An excerpt:
".................
This brings you to the next level, which is called “threshold,” “access,” or “neighborhood” concentration. It’s in the neighborhood of getting really settled down, but it’s not quite there yet. This is where the mind grows fairly peaceful, but at this stage it can easily lose its focus. As I said, with momentary concentration, the problem is that it can’t withstand displeasure. Well, the
problem with access concentration is that it can’t withstand pleasure. It loses focus when it runs into real pleasure................
............."
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Re: First Jhana...a description

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chownah wrote: There is a difference in modern Engish betweent qualities and activities....it's hard to know just where the description of first jhana falls with respect to them....I think the bias for translators and interpretors has been to use the more passive term in that traditionally most meditators do it very passively while on the cushion....consider that although it calls them "qualities" it indicates that they "arise": "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose ".........doesn't it seem that if directed thought, evaluatin, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence and mindfulness can arise then something besides passively sitting might provide the setting for the arising?....it seems to me that in first jhana some of these are unlikely to arise in isolation...like feeling without contact or perception without contact and feeling....etc. Of course I might be completely wrong about this but it does look like alot more is happening in first jhana than what many people suggest...I'm getting the idea that many people take the method for entering first jhana to be its entirety whereas the sutta seems to indicate that after entering first jhana the mind gets fairly busy.....
there maybe an activity to get the quality and the quality may be active in some way, but don't confuse a quality of the mind with what the the mind is active in doing. i.e. thinking is an activity not a quality, but joy is a quality with associated activities such as certain types of perceptions. there are five faculties and five strengths both identical lists but one points to a quality the other to the activity of the quality, both supporting each other, and as such one provides the causes and conditions for the other, a feedback loop, this can be seen also with the enlightening factors, the list is given in a dependent origination fashion at times and yet at other times the factor can arise without the dependence upon another factor, based upon how well the supports have been developed for the factors. and if you read the great forty MN117 the same could be said for the eightfold path.

but I digress, to simply put my point, it is the quality which needs to be established, the activities only support the establishment.
My mindfulness and insight practice comes from mostly off the cushion so it may be helpful for me if I can make some connections between what I experience and what the Buddha teaches.


how about this
my translation of the mahasatipatthana sutta wrote: The Section on Clear Knowing - Sampajānapabbaṃ
2.3.1 Clearly knowing our bodily actions
Mendicants, at another time the meditator while leaning forward, or leaning back, is one who exists mindfully; while looking towards, or inspecting something, is one who exists mindfully; while bending, or stretching, is one who exists mindfully; while using their robes, alms-bowl, and double-robe, is one who exists mindfully; while eating, drinking, chewing, or tasting, is one who exists mindfully; while going to the toilet, they exist mindfully; while walking, standing still, and sitting; while asleep, or awake; while talking, and remaining silent, they are those who exists mindfully;

2.3.2 Insight Refrain
You should also abide contemplating the body as a collection of parts regarding yourselves (internally,) or abide contemplating the body as a collection of parts regarding others (externally,) or abide contemplating the body as a collection of parts regarding yourselves (internally,) and others (externally,) or abide contemplating qualities of origination regarding the body, or abide contemplating qualities of cessation regarding the body, or abide contemplating qualities of origination, and cessation regarding the body, or else mindfulness is that “there is a body,” is present for the purpose of fully developing knowledge and mindfulness, abide not dependent on or grasping for something in the world.
Mendicants, it is a meditator who abides contemplating the body as a collection of parts just so.
The end of the section on clear knowing.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa,
Thanks for focusing on qualities....are you saying that directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention are all qualities of the mind?...it seems to me that some are but contact for instance seems more like something that is happening. This is mostly a side issue in that for a quality to establish there will be an activity associated...at least I think you said this. For me the bottom line is that the list of "whatever qualities there are in the first Jhana" seems to allow that there could be physical activity other than breathing...perhaps walking....a let me say that the walking meditation I've learned is much more refined than any description I've heard of Buddhist walking meditation...it's way slower for instance. Anyway....I hope you can see my view on the list of qualities and if you can provide any information that can show my views to be incorrect please do so....I have no problem with being wrong about things and appreciate information which helps me to challenge my views....for instance if I really should be seeing contact as a quality please let me know.
Also, I found http://images.manapa.multiply.multiplyc ... =376229246" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; by googling a portion of what you reproduced above. I'm interested in the footnote to Clear Knowing that being:
"Also called clear comprehension, and maybe related to the first two stages
of ānāpānasati practice, that of discerning the length of the breath. This
would expand our initial focus within a formal posture to general
movements, and then further, from how we are moving, too why we are
moving/acting."
Can you talk about "expand ouir initial focus within a formal posture to general movements"....could this be general movements like walking?

chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

Thanks for focusing on qualities....are you saying that directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention are all qualities of the mind?...it seems to me that some are but contact for instance seems more like something that is happening.

with contact, Why not both? why do each have to be one or the other specifically? the focus should be on the quality but the activity is what brings it about, so it then stays a while, then goes.
at present I am typing on a keyboard, it is something that is happening, but the quality of the action is something that is also present. the power and the faculty of mindfulness (for instance) the quality of keeping something in mind, or to mind, isn't the same as the strength of mindfulness the longevity of it, but the faculty is only as good as the strength, and vice versa.
This is mostly a side issue in that for a quality to establish there will be an activity associated...at least I think you said this. For me the bottom line is that the list of "whatever qualities there are in the first Jhana" seems to allow that there could be physical activity other than breathing...perhaps walking....a let me say that the walking meditation I've learned is much more refined than any description I've heard of Buddhist walking meditation...it's way slower for instance.
slower than mahasi?
walking meditation can be as slow as the practitioner wishes, I prefer a natural pace rather than a deliberately slow pace. but here is where
Anyway....I hope you can see my view on the list of qualities and if you can provide any information that can show my views to be incorrect please do so....I have no problem with being wrong about things and appreciate information which helps me to challenge my views....for instance if I really should be seeing contact as a quality please let me know.
from ignorance comes fabrications.... but at the end of the day you need to see for yourself, I personally do not believe that it is possible, but that doesn't mean I am correct!

but to the last part, their is a updated version, and one is being looked at to clear up any inconsistencies etc in the english/footnotes.
but
Mendicants, at another time the meditator while leaning forward, or leaning back, is one who exists mindfully; while looking towards, or inspecting something, is one who exists mindfully; while bending, or stretching, is one who exists mindfully; while using their robes, alms-bowl, and double-robe, is one who exists mindfully; while eating, drinking, chewing, or tasting, is one who exists mindfully; while going to the toilet, they exist mindfully; while walking, standing still, and sitting; while asleep, or awake; while talking, and remaining silent, they are those who exists mindfully;
it is there in the quote! and it is also within the second section of the sutta right after mindfulness of breathing. this being the third section.
but it could also be this 'expanded focus' which may cause the problem indicated Jhana isn't likely, as there are more things going on than in sitting practice, however, I could be wrong and it could discount attaining a higher jhana than the first. remember if the factors are there it could be Jhana.

however for me (at present) this section is about clearly knowing what we are doing, why we are doing it, is it for distraction or for a purpose? it also includes restraint of the senses, a deliberate focus away from distraction, keeping within our home resort (the four satipatthana - quail similie in SN47), being introspective and developing hightened sila rathar than being outgoingly exuberant and allowing our mind free reign. in formal practice we take up an object and stick with it, sure we can change object but it would be something like anapana or metta, as examples, however here it seams to indicate a more natural daily life routine (and other instances of this passage do put it before anapana) which may require the quality of metta to be present, but not the time for formal cultivation, the mental calm anapana allows but not the time to allow that calm to be cultivated fully; in short an expanded focus adds to our workload, a quiet dinner for 4 or a function for 400!


p.s. taking some time off for a few days now so may not be swift in responding, but I am sure their will be others who are more than capable to respond in a timely manner.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

I was surprised when reading in another thread (about internal/external emptiness and unperurbedness) to read that in MN 122 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
it says the following:
"...............
"If, while the monk is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to walking back & forth, he walks back & forth [thinking,] 'While I am walking thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.
.............."
In this excerpt the "dwelling by means of this dwelling" refers to fourth jhana....or at least the monk being described goes to fourth jhana before starting a rather long series of contemplations which culminate in this and similar statements about talking etc.

I guess this is saying that it is possible to walk while in fourth jhana. I still am not certain whether in the many suttas where concentration is first established (jhanas) and then contemplations occur whether after the jhana is established it continues throughout the contemplations...seems like it does as there is nothing to indicate that it dissipates.....but I don't know for sure.

Anyway...so far there seems to be some evidence suggesting that walking may be possible in first jhana and now this seems to indicate that there can be walking in fourth jhana....makes me think that it might be possible in the second and third also...don't know.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Son »

DOES ANYONE HERE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF THE FIRST JHANA?

If so, could you please be so graceful as to share it with us? I've been attempting to attain it and have only reached the approximate-jhana.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by manas »

Son wrote:DOES ANYONE HERE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF THE FIRST JHANA?

If so, could you please be so graceful as to share it with us? I've been attempting to attain it and have only reached the approximate-jhana.
Regarding your frustration, I can relate! People say so many varying things about jhana. But as for having actually been there,..hardly anyone will admit to it!!

Like yourself, I reckon I've come close, in the sense of being 'at the door' so to speak, and even that was not what I thought it would be. Bear in mind, however, that if the five hindrances are abandoned and there is sustained piti-sukha, it could be argued that one is already there, and that it just needs more and more refining...?, Like learning to bake a cake. You try over and over, and keep getting close, but it doesn't rise. Then one day it rises, and you have a cake - great! - but the quality is not so good. But it's still a cake. So you keep on practicing until you become really skilled at making the cake. I reckon it's more like that. More of us have had jhana than we might believe, imho. But we get too mental about it, due to so many expectations.

As I understand it, vitakka did originally mean actual thinking, nothing fancier than that. Over time it came to mean something else (as in the commentaries...):
Vitakka [vi+takka] reflection, thought, thinking; "initial application"...
... Note. Looking at the combn vitakka+vicāra in earlier and later works one comes to the conclusion that they were once used to denote one & the same thing: just thought, thinking, only in an emphatic way (as they are also semantically synonymous), and that one has to take them as one expression, like jānāti passati, without being able to state their difference. With the advance in the Sangha of intensive study of terminology they became distinguished mutually. Vitakka became the inception of mind, or attending, and was no longer applied, as in the Suttas, to thinking in general. The explns of Commentators are mostly of an edifying nature and based more on popular etymology than on natural psychological grounds.

It makes sense to me that we should first be able to make use of the occasional mental prompt or reminder so long as the thinking is under full control, intentional, and directly related to the meditation in this present moment. What is supposed to have been abandoned is the incessant chattering and bubbling up of one thought after another (papanca) - yes, that surely must be absent, as it is implied here:
Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. (Uddhaccakukkuccaṃ pahāya anuddhato viharati ajjhattaṃ vūpasantacitto, uddhaccakukkuccaṃ cittaṃ parisodheti.)

Vūpasama [fr. vi+upa+śam; cp. BSk. vyupaśama Divy 578] 1. allaying, relief, suppression, mastery, cessation, calmness S iii.32; iv.217; v.65 (cetaso); D ii.157 (sankhārā); A i.4 (id.); ii.162 (papañca˚); v.72; Pug 69; J i.392; DhsA 403. -- 2. quenching (of thirst) PvA 104.
But where does it say that in first jhana the mind is totally and absolutely still? It doesn't - because that comes in the second jhana, where vitakka-vicara is let go of. My interpretation of the sources above is that some thinking is ok in first jhana, but it would be totally on one's own terms, under control, used for the purposes of the meditation, very calm, and nothing to do with the usual near-constant background chatter that many of us have to endure in ordinary consciousness.

metta. :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by manas »

Son wrote:DOES ANYONE HERE HAVE EXPERIENCE OF THE FIRST JHANA?

If so, could you please be so graceful as to share it with us? I've been attempting to attain it and have only reached the approximate-jhana.
And how did you reach the 'approximate jhana'? By abandoning the hindrances. So rather than worrying about not having 'attained' jhana yet, just keep patiently putting forth the causes that will eventually issue it forth. In other words, the positive qualities of mind that specifically overcome and subdue the hindrances. I see it as a game of cause-and-effect. You keep putting forth the causes, and when the time is right, there arises the effect. It can actually be fun (so long as you take it seriously and with the proper respect it is due). Mindfulness searches out the mind for any one of the hindrances. You see which one is most prominent, and apply the specific remedy, wiping it out. I won't say it's easy, rather it's the most challenging thing I've ever attempted!...but it's still fun, (well, sometimes) just as I imagine mountain climbing is also fun, despite requiring immense effort and the tolerance of a measure of pain, initially. (I don't know if any of that made much sense to anyone, but I hope it did).

As I said, I think quite a few of us have tasted the first jhana and don't recognize it, due to expecting bright light or god knows what. Let's forget all those presuppositions, and rather ask: Were the hindrances totally absent? Was the mind under control, calm, clear? Was there piti-sukha spreading through you / your body / whatever-you want-to-call-kaya? Was it a pleasure superior to sexual pleasure? If so, how do you know that wasn't actually jhana, but only dipped in to, but not as yet remained in? :thinking: Maybe it just 'needs a bit of work',..

Just keep working on abandoning the hindrances, then, at the right time, one thing leads to another...imhe...

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Son
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Son »

manas wrote:
But where does it say that in first jhana the mind is totally and absolutely still? It doesn't - because that comes in the second jhana, where vitakka-vicara is let go of. My interpretation of the sources above is that some thinking is ok in first jhana, but it would be totally on one's own terms, under control, used for the purposes of the meditation, very calm, and nothing to do with the usual near-constant background chatter that many of us have to endure in ordinary consciousness.

Ok I hope I don't get pilloried too much for that! :P

metta. :anjali:
I think this is where "one-pointedness" comes in. How is there background chatter when you have one-pointedness of concentration? There isn't. The difference between near-jhana and jhana is that even though this chatter has faded, one-pointedness is absent. More focus is required to reach it, of which I haven't achieved. That's why people refer to "being afraid" of the jhana and going back to distraction. I think it requires much more effort, and that's what I've been working on. You have to abandon all those unpleasant things that distract your mind. That's why instructors say you should shift your focus to something pleasant, like your smile. It takes a very clear and focused mind to prepare for one-pointedness.
A seed sleeps in soil.
It's cold and alone, hopeless.
Until it blooms above.
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