the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Postby kirk5a» Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:30 pm
ancientbuddhism wrote:Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding – do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience?

How do you KNOW it's a myth? How do you KNOW it "cannot be reached by living experience"? Others while living have said they have in fact seen the truth of it for themselves. So you put yourself in opposition to them - but what is your certainty actually based upon?
Postby bodom » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:36 pm
ancientbuddhism wrote:Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding...
According to the Buddha rebirth CAN be known here and now through meditative experience:

"These four bases of power, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit. And how are the four bases of power developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit & great benefit?...."He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... .html#fn-3
To make an assertion by fiat, even backed up by the early texts as you wish (I can read a book too), still amounts to the same thing; it is an empty claim.
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

ancientbuddhism wrote: To make an assertion by fiat, even backed up by the early texts as you wish (I can read a book too), still amounts to the same thing; it is an empty claim.
You made an empty claim, not those of us who responded to you.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Ervin
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Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by Ervin »

My understaning is that Budhists believe in hell realms. Once a Budhist reverend told me that one day in hell is 50 thousand years. If that is really the case than that is horific and extremley cruel and disproportionate punishment. Honestly I hope there a is no hell or at least if Budha was right than I hope they are to be taken metaphorically.

Anyway, I am interested in your/theravada take on it!

Thanks
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mikenz66
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ervin,

The idea of "punishment" is not a feature of Theravada, or Buddhism in general.

Whether or not one takes such things as literal or metaphorical, they are simply a result of causes and conditions.

Just a stepping off a cliff will inevitably cause injury, so certain actions will lead to hell.

:anjali:
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ground
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by ground »

I doubt that there is a definition given by the Buddha for what is the meaning of "literal". IMO "literal" can only refer to the dependent arising of habitual fabrication by thought after eye and eye consciousness (or ear and ear consciousness) have contacted an optical (or acoustical) symbol known as "word" or "term" which is meaningless as such. So a "literal meaning" of a meaningless symbol as such actually is determined by habits. Such habits may differ between individuals.


Kind regards
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
cooran wrote:What would be the point of the Buddha's teachings on Kamma without the 'flux of becoming' continuing on until eradication of defilements and attainment of Nibbana?

Maintaining that there is no llife to life rebirth reduces the Buddha's teachings to just another list of ethics.
Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding – do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience? With the myth of rebirth aside I do not see a mere system of ethics, mere petty morality, but a way of living with an analysis of experience which can be put into practice with evident progression.

Personally I find no need for speculation about rebirth/ no rebirth in my practice in the here and now. How can it possibly benefit me in any way to have my mind spinning around speculating on past and future or letting myself be intimidated to choose other than that ? The Buddha said we shouldn't chase after the past and future (MN 2, MN 38, MN 131) he said the Dhamma is visible in the here and now (AN 6.4, SN 1.10 ) I'm happy to continue practising without needing to take any position and also satisfied with the instructions I've received from a respected Forest Tradition teacher.

with metta to all,

Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
Personally I find no need for speculation about rebirth/ no rebirth in my practice in the here and now. How can it possibly benefit me in any way to have my mind spinning around speculating on past and future or letting myself be intimidated to choose other than that ? The Buddha said we shouldn't chase after the past and future (MN 2, MN 38, MN 131) he said the Dhamma is visible in the here and now (AN 6.4, SN 1.10 ) I'm happy to continue practising without needing to take any position and also satisfied with the instructions I've received from a respected Forest Tradition teacher.
Yeah, but who is asking you to speculate about rebirth? Asking what it is that the Buddha says in the suttas about the issue is NOT any more unreasonable than asking what the Buddha said about about any number of subjects. And no, you do not need to take a position on rebirth, but there is also no need to try to dismiss the question of rebirth by calling any question about rebirth in the suttas as being speculation, as do some of the rabid anti-rebirthers, when it is not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Aloka wrote: The Buddha said we shouldn't chase after the past and future (MN 2, MN 38, MN 131)
And in the latter he said not to get drawn into the present either:
"And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an uninstructed ordinary man who takes no account of the Noble Ones, is unskilled in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, untrained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, taking no account of the good men, unskilled in the Dhamma of the good men, untrained in the Dhamma of the good men, looks upon form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He looks upon feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He looks upon perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He looks upon formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He looks upon consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how, monks, one is drawn into present things.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Past, present, future, all things to be avoided... :thinking:

:anjali:
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

And in the latter he said not to get drawn into the present either:
One doesnt have to be drawn into the present to simply be relaxed, open and aware in the here and now.

.
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
And in the latter he said not to get drawn into the present either:
One doesnt have to be drawn into the present to simply be relaxed, open and aware in the here and now.

.
And one does not have to be drawn into the future or past or present to study the Buddha's words.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Aloka wrote:
And in the latter he said not to get drawn into the present either:
One doesnt have to be drawn into the present to simply be relaxed, open and aware in the here and now.

.
Sure, that's what one is aiming for, but the sutta warns us that the present can be just as dangerous a distraction as the past or the future.

:anjali:
Mike
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

OK guys, not much point in me continuing, because you obviously consider yourselves to be superior practitioners with all the answers.

with metta

Aloka
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:OK guys, not much point in me continuing, because you obviously consider yourselves to be superior practitioners with all the answers.

with metta

Aloka
Oh, please. That is silly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

kirk5a wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote: To make an assertion by fiat, even backed up by the early texts as you wish (I can read a book too), still amounts to the same thing; it is an empty claim.
You made an empty claim, not those of us who responded to you.
I realize that these are issues for some, hence the prejudicial fallacies. Re-read my comments here & here; I have made no claim. In the second post I did ask a question.
“Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding”


Which is to say ‘lets set aside what we cannot demonstrate in order to consider...’ (not for nothin’ but – rebirth fits exactly the definition of what a myth is)
“do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience?”
‘whether’ includes both yours et al, textual and personal assumptions on faith & one who chooses to work with what can be known directly; ascertainable by the faculties one has (unless you have an extra khandha in your pocket, this means all of us).
“With the myth of rebirth aside I do not see a mere system of ethics, mere petty morality, but a way of living with an analysis of experience which can be put into practice with evident progression.”
And this would qualify the question by what the questioner suggests is universally workable, that is, you can believe in rebirth and practice, another can be agnostic on rebirth and practice; all without losing what is essentially the aim of the Buddha's teaching.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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kirk5a
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Re: Is hell and hungry ghost realm to be taken literally?

Post by kirk5a »

TMingyur wrote:I doubt that there is a definition given by the Buddha for what is the meaning of "literal". IMO "literal" can only refer to the dependent arising of habitual fabrication by thought after eye and eye consciousness (or ear and ear consciousness) have contacted an optical (or acoustical) symbol known as "word" or "term" which is meaningless as such. So a "literal meaning" of a meaningless symbol as such actually is determined by habits. Such habits may differ between individuals.
So if you're walking in a park and someone says "look out for the cliff!" then... what. Meaningless-as-such auditory symbols? Which one has a habit of interpreting metaphorically? :smile:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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