the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Lazy_eye
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Lazy_eye »

Alex123 wrote: And where does view of Ajita Kesakambalin includes belief in metaphysical Atta? His view sounds very similar to Buddha's as far as physical body being made of 4 elements and without any metaphysical Atta presiding over it.

Is there continuation of cittas after the death of physical body of worldling or not? If no, then how does it significantly differ from Ajita Kesakambalin's view?
Ajita Kesakambalin goes far beyond mere physicalism or skepticism about an afterlife. What he preaches is all-out moral nihilism -- "there is nothing given, nothing offered....no fruit or result of good or bad actions...no mother, no father...generosity is taught by idiots". It's an extreme view and obviously undermines any basis for ethical behavior or spiritual life. Even a hardcore Batchelorite or Buddhadasa-wallah wouldn't take such a stance, no matter how they might interpret rebirth.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
santa100
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by santa100 »

Daverupa wrote:
Kamma doesn't operate solely across the alleged death-birth barrier, but within one life as well. It has effect in this world, or in the next, or later, per the Suttas
Indeed, and if there's no rebirth, Kamma won't hold in 2 out 3 cases: the "previous world" and the "next world". Its scope would be solely restricted to the "current world", which obviously not on the same page with the Suttas..
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

cooran wrote:What would be the point of the Buddha's teachings on Kamma without the 'flux of becoming' continuing on until eradication of defilements and attainment of Nibbana?

Maintaining that there is no llife to life rebirth reduces the Buddha's teachings to just another list of ethics.
Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding – do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience? With the myth of rebirth aside I do not see a mere system of ethics, mere petty morality, but a way of living with an analysis of experience which can be put into practice with evident progression.
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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

ancientbuddhism wrote: Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding – do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience?
How do you KNOW it's a myth? How do you KNOW it "cannot be reached by living experience"? Others while living have said they have in fact seen the truth of it for themselves. So you put yourself in opposition to them - but what is your certainty actually based upon?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by bodom »

ancientbuddhism wrote:Myth of rebirth in the early texts notwithstanding – do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience?
According to the Buddha rebirth CAN be known here and now through meditative experience:
"These four bases of power, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit. And how are the four bases of power developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit & great benefit?...."He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.
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Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

ancientbuddhism wrote:...do the teachings of the Buddha stand or fail based on whether one believes in what cannot be reached by living experience?
I accept rebirth largely on trust in the Buddha, but I very rarely see it explained by others without some manner of implicit atta, which is a huge mistake. The idea, however, that agnosticism on this issue means one's Dhamma practice is less-than is horribly mistaken. Seeing it comes with effort (if it comes at all), and until then it's easily set aside in preference to those aspects of the Path that are more immediately verifiable.
kirk5a wrote:How do you KNOW it's a myth? How do you KNOW it "cannot be reached by living experience"? Others while living have said they have in fact seen the truth of it for themselves. So you put yourself in opposition to them - but what is your certainty actually based upon?
I'll wager that in place of "cannot be", above, we could say "has not been" and avoid the entirety of your critique. With this subtle change of phrase, we uphold the Buddha's injunction that we NOT claim to know what we, in fact, do not know, whether affirming or denying rebirth. We withhold judgment on the matter and continue with our individual practice.
ancientbuddhism wrote:With the myth of rebirth aside I do not see a mere system of ethics, mere petty morality, but a way of living with an analysis of experience which can be put into practice with evident progression.
This evident progression is the key, because it's evident whether or not rebirth is seen for oneself, accepted on trust, set aside for the time being, or discarded as irrelevant. In any of these cases, the Dhamma can be practiced for benefit. Claiming that rebirth is a necessary component to accept is incorrect and alienating to many.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by kirk5a »

daverupa wrote: I'll wager that in place of "cannot be", above, we could say "has not been" and avoid the entirety of your critique.
Not unless one says - 'has not been reached by me"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
kaiel
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the great rebirth debate

Post by kaiel »

This may be a long winded post so I apologize. First off I am a Roman Catholic by birth and loosely practice it, that being said I believe no one religion is absolute. For this reason I do my best to study various belief systems. I have spent the last three months reading up on Buddhism in all its forms, and I must say I feel it to be truly an amazing and enlightening religion, one I wish to perhaps be a part of. However this concept of rebirth and anatta confuse me.

I have spent the last month on this topic specifically, the last 3 nights reading posts in this forum on the topic, I would like to get a good explanation on this realizing this is a the a Theravada forum.

Question If there is no soul, what if anything is reborn...since I don't expect to reach enlightenment in my 80 or so years of life, if I do not continue on, why even bother starting the path, after all only one guy has done it in 2600 years
.. now I would like to eliminate some possible responses off the bat, ones I have already seen posted here. Keep in mind I am currently not a Buddhist and therefore am not looking to debate anyone on scripture.

1. I've seen it said rebirth is not literal, that we go through rebirth every moment based on our karma from the last. My take here is the wise Siddhartha would of used simpler language, like you actions yesterday effect who you are and your well being today. Terms like deva and asura and hungry ghosts used for nothing more than describing a mental state seems like metaphorical overkill.


2. I've seen it said not even to bother thinking about it, to do so locks me further in samsara, well to that I reply I fully expect to be in samsara for a while, I'm okay with a slow crawl to enlightenment so yes I want to think about it.

3. I've also seen it said there is no soul, but a subtle self, or luminous mind, or mind stream. Now to me this sounds like a soul,many religions have different takes on what a soul is, but the gist of it is a part of you that continues on after. The Tibetans go on to describe the actual events while Inbetween lives, how is this anatta, yet I would expect these monks who should be well versed in Buddhas teachings

4. Lastly I have sadly seen posts here where one wiser than thou type simply states its too complex for the op to understand , that they , or me, do not grasp Siddharthas teachings, to me this type of response is no different than pushy Christian types exclaiming its in the bible so its true whether you like it or not.

So to reiterate if me...kaiel does not continue after death, and lets face it I am not going to be the next Buddha in 40 more years of life, why follow the path, surely there are other philosophies that one can follow to just make ones life a more productive one, or is there some sort of essence , mind stream, Jedi force, that continues.

I truly thank you all for your time and look forward to some good productive replies.


1. I have seen this answered by simply saying, do not worry about it, or its not worth thinking
plwk
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the great rebirth debate

Post by plwk »

Have you read this? Ignoring all 'one wiser than thou type simply states its too complex for the op to understand'...
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Life is a process, not a thing — a wave, not a particle.

The so-called self or soul is an illusion, not a person or a being. If we can realise the nature of the illusion then doubt will disappear and insight will arise.

If we have a clear intellectual understanding of the nature of illusions, we know how they work and that they are just illusions, but we are still deceived by them. However, the deception is not so completely beguiling. We start to think in a more skilful way since the ego doesn't obstruct our thought process.

An enlightened person has destroyed doubt about the right path and the ego-illusion completely, so they cannot do immoral deeds such as killing, stealing, adultery, or telling lies that are liable to send deluded beings to hell or the animal realms.
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PeterB
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by PeterB »

santa100 wrote:
Daverupa wrote:
Kamma doesn't operate solely across the alleged death-birth barrier, but within one life as well. It has effect in this world, or in the next, or later, per the Suttas
Indeed, and if there's no rebirth, Kamma won't hold in 2 out 3 cases: the "previous world" and the "next world". Its scope would be solely restricted to the "current world", which obviously not on the same page with the Suttas..
Not " obvious" to me..
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

daverupa wrote:This evident progression is the key, because it's evident whether or not rebirth is seen for oneself, accepted on trust, set aside for the time being, or discarded as irrelevant. In any of these cases, the Dhamma can be practiced for benefit. Claiming that rebirth is a necessary component to accept is incorrect and alienating to many.
I agree. Dhamma is a process of discovery and verification, not a process of taking on beliefs.

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the great rebirth debate

Post by Mawkish1983 »

kaiel wrote:I don't expect to reach enlightenment ... only one guy has done it in 2600 years
I am confident quite a few people have achieved nibbana.

Anyway, this is my understanding (and I am certainly not an arahant so bear in mind it could be wildly wrong): Anatta means no permanent self can be found in the five aggregates. These five aggregates constitute what we think of as 'us'. Upon death these five aggregates break up, so that illusion of 'self' is defiled and no longer exists. The consequences for the choices we make, however, do not end at death and causality continues to play out. This gives us a huge responsibility. Our choices are the cause of a new being coming into existence and our choices effect their existence just as they effected our own. Causality is reborn. Kamma-vipaka rumbles on through countless lifetimes. We have the responsibility to try to end suffering not just for our selfish sake (after all, our aggregates are already becoming defiled from the moment we are born and we will die) but for the sake of the serial existences we will cause by our volition. Ideally we will attain nibbana and end the cycle of causality, end our part in kamma-vipaka.

Edit: Again, that caveat, I'm a beginner myself.
chownah
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the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

kaiel,
You posted, "...since I don't expect to reach enlightenment in my 80 or so years of life, if I do not continue on, why even bother starting the path, after all only one guy has done it in 2600 years".
I want to point out that from the Theravada perspective the goal is to end dukkha (suffering) which is the same thing as reaching nibhanna...this is the same ending of suffering as the Buddha reached and the same nibhanna that the Buddha reached. It is not the goal for most people to attain to the same state of the Buddha in general in that the Buddha's special qualities only arises in another Buddha every gazillion years give or take a few bazillion and every Buddha's "job" is to rediscover the path and teach it. Since only one of these is needed every gazillion years give or take a few bazillion it is not necessary for everyone to achieve this so we only need to achieve nibhanna without worrying about developing all those special abilities...unless we want to....but remember that there are alot of people who indicate that they want to achieve the Buddha "status" so the competition is fierce....for my money just plane old nibhanna will do just fine....
Since you are a beginner I"ll warn you to not take any one person's views on anything in Buddhism as being definitive....you need to listen and read and learn what ideas are out there and then try it out for yourself....the proof will be discovered by your own experiences....I guess.
Also, I want to point out that in the scriptures there lot's of people (thousands I think) that are said to have attained nibhanna in the Buddha's life and it is assumed that there are people today who have achieved it too....although mostly people don't talk about their achievements.....although I will say that I have achieved a method for raising rice organically!!!
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Saijun
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the great rebirth debate

Post by Saijun »

kaiel wrote: [...]
Question If there is no soul, what if anything is reborn...
[...]
So to reiterate if me...kaiel does not continue after death, and lets face it I am not going to be the next Buddha in 40 more years of life, why follow the path, surely there are other philosophies that one can follow to just make ones life a more productive one, or is there some sort of essence , mind stream, Jedi force, that continues.
Hello Kaiel,

For what it's worth from a Mahayana person (though I'm not convinced that my view is out of line with the Theravada standpoint), I was asked by another Sangha-mate, "[t]he only thing I have a hard time wrapping my mind around is this. After stripping away the mental being...and the physical being...what exactly is left over to even be carried over into a new body/mind?"

And I answered (still the best answer I can come up with):
Elsewhere, I wrote: The best way that I can put it conceptually is that the ego carries on; the three "poisons," i.e., greed, aversion, and ignorance make up the ego and propel it on. For one to be reborn again and again, there have to be conditions, just as for one to awaken, there have to be conditions (that bring you to the gate of the unconditioned).

So, it's like an etch-a-sketch (remember those?) The drawing is subject to knobs being twiddled. When we die, it's like someone shaking the picture out (except for the purposes of this simile, it's a very bad etch-a-sketch and there is residue [karma/vipaka] still sort of left on after the shaking). Awakening is when the etch-a-sketch is put down. No more holding on to it, no more twiddling the knobs to make the picture just so. Just set it down and don't bother trying to make things anymore.

It's a weak simile at best, but that's basically all I've got at the moment.
Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing, or at least a reasonable approximation. I hope this helps!

Metta and Anjali,

Saijun
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