Concentration meditation difficulties

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
darods
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by darods »

Thanks for the help. It really made a difference, I realised that obviously whenever I realise I am visualising on what is happening with the nose that I am not paying attention to what I should be doing which is focussing on the sensation. So now the moment it happens I switch to attempting to focus on what I feel.

One other thing though I have noticed is that in some sessions I cannot actually feel the sensations of breathing. I may feel something up inside my nose always but sometimes I cannot feel the breath at the end of the nose/upper lip. Or other times I can feel it when breathing out but not in and vice versa. At these times when I cannot feel it, so thus no sensation to focus on, should I be thinking of nothing?

Thankyou again.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by tiltbillings »

darods wrote: One other thing though I have noticed is that in some sessions I cannot actually feel the sensations of breathing. I may feel something up inside my nose always but sometimes I cannot feel the breath at the end of the nose/upper lip. Or other times I can feel it when breathing out but not in and vice versa. At these times when I cannot feel it, so thus no sensation to focus on, should I be thinking of nothing?
It is not really a matter of thinking of anything. Where the sensations of breathing are felt is going to change sometimes from one breath to the next, or from the inhalation to the exhalation, or even during an inhalation or an exhalation. Just gently pay attention to that. If there are times when you do not feel the breathing, just pay attention to the sensations at/in the nose that you can feel. Don't, however, get caught up in trying to feel a sensation. Just pay attention; don't think about it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Ben and Tilt,
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply talking about doing Buddhist practice, simply and directly.
And standard Theravadin garden-variety practice at that, too.
You are not. It is not. You are just talking about YOUR OWN practice - not Theravada.
Ajahn Chah wrote: The only way to really put an end to your doubts and speculation is through practising until you reach the point where you see the results clearly for yourself. This is the most important thing of all. Learning from different teachers is an essential preliminary to practice. It is a valuable support as you move from hearing the teachings to learning from your own experience. You have to contemplate the teachings you receive in light of your own practice until you gain your own understanding.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Clarity_Insight1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ajahn Chah wrote: Our only duty right now is to practice mindfulness of the breathing. Fix your attention at the head and move it down through the body to the tips of the feet, and then back up to the crown of the head. Pass your awareness down through the body, observing with wisdom. We do this to gain an initial understanding of the way the body is. Then begin the meditation, noting that at this time your sole duty is to observe the inhalations and exhalations.

....

If the mind is agitated, set up mindfulness and inhale deeply till there is no space left to store any air, then release it all completely until none remains. Follow this with another deep inhalation until you are full, then release the air again. Do this two or three times, then re-establish concentration.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Meditation1.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And seriously, I do not understand why you try so hard to convince everybody that this kind of meditation we talk about on this thread is difficult, time-consuming, and expensive. It is neither true nor helpful.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by tiltbillings »

Freawaru wrote:Hi Ben and Tilt,
Ben wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I am simply talking about doing Buddhist practice, simply and directly.
And standard Theravadin garden-variety practice at that, too.
You are not. It is not. You are just talking about YOUR OWN practice - not Theravada.
And you are the arbiter of what is and is not Theravada?

The Ajahn Chah quotes do not support this accusation of yours.
And seriously, I do not understand why you try so hard to convince everybody that this kind of meditation we talk about on this thread is difficult, time-consuming, and expensive. It is neither true nor helpful.
I have no idea as to what you are talking about here. I am addressing directly the OP's concerns within the framework of what practice he/she is doing, which is the appropriate thing to be doing. If you want to argue about this, take to the Dhamma-free-for-all.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Freawaru »

darods wrote:Thanks for the help. It really made a difference, I realised that obviously whenever I realise I am visualising on what is happening with the nose that I am not paying attention to what I should be doing which is focussing on the sensation. So now the moment it happens I switch to attempting to focus on what I feel.

One other thing though I have noticed is that in some sessions I cannot actually feel the sensations of breathing. I may feel something up inside my nose always but sometimes I cannot feel the breath at the end of the nose/upper lip. Or other times I can feel it when breathing out but not in and vice versa. At these times when I cannot feel it, so thus no sensation to focus on, should I be thinking of nothing?

Thankyou again.
Hi Darods,

with this technqiue you aim at becoming fully aware of your somatosensory system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . The tactile sense is actually several senses, heat and cold, movement and pressure and vibrations. All using different receptors. The skin is actually not difficult, especially as there are some tricks like those I already wrote. The internal part like heart, liver and so on, are more difficult but this can and has to be done, too, for kayanupassana:

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... assana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you have the impression that you cannot actually feel the sensation of breathing ask yourself "what sensation?" Is it heat or movement or pressure? Are they all gone? Can you maybe still sense the mouth or the eyes? Try to reestablish perception on another location and then move it back to the nose. Or touch the nose with your finger or breath in or out forcefully.
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Ben
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Ben »

darods wrote:One other thing though I have noticed is that in some sessions I cannot actually feel the sensations of breathing. I may feel something up inside my nose always but sometimes I cannot feel the breath at the end of the nose/upper lip. Or other times I can feel it when breathing out but not in and vice versa. At these times when I cannot feel it, so thus no sensation to focus on, should I be thinking of nothing?
Tilt's advice is good. From time to time discerning a particular sensation at the point where the respiration contacts the body can seem to disappear. Sensation of the incoming and outgoing breath is always there but we're not used to discerning such subtle phenomena. When the mind becomes concentrated the breathing naturally becomes shallower and shallower. As Tilt says, just pay attention. The quality of mind that you bring to the exercise should be light.
As the sensation of contact becomes more and more subtle, it may eventually disappear from "view". One technique that I have used from time to time is to switch the awareness to a change in temperature in the area below the nostrils and above the upper lip. The exhalation will always be warmer than the incoming breath.
The object of the meditation is merely to observe the breath. Don't worry about thoughts - just try to keep your focus on the breath rather than the background noise of mental chatter.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Sidney
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Sidney »

Dear Darods,

I think what you have been doing is not the problem with concentration as I first understood your question as a difficulty getting concentration. However, when read further it appears to me that you are elaborating on it or analysing it in the wrong direction.

Vipassana meditation has several stages; the first stage is to develop and nuture awareness and to obtain a short one-pointedness concentration. This is usually obtained by closing other five portals of sensation and only contemplate on the touch of air onto the tip of nostrils or upper lip. If you can focus your attention to it for few minutes the next step is to analyse and reflect upon what you have experienced, but should be in the right direction. Instead of analysing the sensation for its quality try to focus on the beginning and the end of the sensation, rather than on the nature and qualities.
If you can contemplate this awareness then, you need to reflect on the dhamma; becoming and ceasation of every sensation; i.e. everything goes in cycles, if there is a beginning there will be an end and vice versa.
If you can master this realisation, then you can shift your contemplation onto every sensation that you come across from the six portals, including your thoughts. If you can master each and every sensation and have realised their nature of beginnings and ends; by this stage your samadhi will be very strong and you would notice few experiences which I have posted in another thread.

If in any case you could not develop strong samadhi do let me know and I will see if I can help you.
best wishes!

Sidney
darods
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by darods »

Hi all, I have been practising each day as often as possible, and have come to a new issue that I hope someone can be of help with.

At first, when I sat I would be all over the place mentally. Without realising I would be first having my awareness on an image of my nose breathing, then the sound, then I would lose concentration for a few minutes in thought, then I'd bring it back to the sensation, and within moments it would be back on a visualisation of me breathing.. and so on, jumping around. I don't feel I've particularly progressed in terms of ability in concentration, although I have learnt to get through the issues of restlessness and maintain sitting for the duration I determine at the start.

Jumping to the present, this week I vowed to put in more effort when sitting as I had started to become more about getting through the time, rather than the quality of what I was actually doing.

So this is what I began. When I sit, I clear my mind first. I let my body breath naturally, then begin having my awareness at the sensations of the breath around the nose, not visualising anything, actually staying on the physical sensation, If I realise I am visualising the breath or my nose, I bring it back to the sensation. In the gap between breaths I keep my awareness of the area of sensations. What I have noticed is that after 5 or 6 in and out breaths of doing this.. I begin to get mentally tired.. like a drowziness sets in.. I continue bringing my mind back to the sensation but with each breath the drowziness increases in intensity into almost the sensation you get when you really really want to fall asleep or are about to fall asleep, as it increases it gets harder and harder to keep on the breath until I eventually feel like I'll actually fall asleep so I relent.. my mind jumps around in thoughts for a minute or so as it returns to normal.. the drowziness dissipates very quickly, sometimes here I reapply my awareness to the breath.. for it to happen all over again, othertimes I might lose track completely for 5 minutes before realising I'm not on the breath. Return to it and then it happens all over again. It always seems to happen if I manage to stay on the breath for around 6 to 10 full breaths, other times I might lose awareness before I reach this number and go off on some track of thought.

My question is... am I doing something wrong, or is this just a natural process of my mind being weak in concentration and with each attempt at getting and fighting this drowziness I am making it stronger?

I hope that makes sense.

Thank you for your help


Update:

I have just been experimenting with different postures. Up until now I used a small wooden bench to mediate on, just now I tried sitting cross legged on a cushion.. although it was more uncomfortable for my back and groin/hips, I noted that the above drowziness issue was almost non existant. I'm not ready yet to declare this the solution but I hope it is. The only problem is getting up afterward as one of my legs became completley numb! :D
Nicro
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Nicro »

darods wrote:Hi all, I have been practising each day as often as possible, and have come to a new issue that I hope someone can be of help with.

At first, when I sat I would be all over the place mentally. Without realising I would be first having my awareness on an image of my nose breathing, then the sound, then I would lose concentration for a few minutes in thought, then I'd bring it back to the sensation, and within moments it would be back on a visualisation of me breathing.. and so on, jumping around. I don't feel I've particularly progressed in terms of ability in concentration, although I have learnt to get through the issues of restlessness and maintain sitting for the duration I determine at the start.

Jumping to the present, this week I vowed to put in more effort when sitting as I had started to become more about getting through the time, rather than the quality of what I was actually doing.

So this is what I began. When I sit, I clear my mind first. I let my body breath naturally, then begin having my awareness at the sensations of the breath around the nose, not visualising anything, actually staying on the physical sensation, If I realise I am visualising the breath or my nose, I bring it back to the sensation. In the gap between breaths I keep my awareness of the area of sensations. What I have noticed is that after 5 or 6 in and out breaths of doing this.. I begin to get mentally tired.. like a drowziness sets in.. I continue bringing my mind back to the sensation but with each breath the drowziness increases in intensity into almost the sensation you get when you really really want to fall asleep or are about to fall asleep, as it increases it gets harder and harder to keep on the breath until I eventually feel like I'll actually fall asleep so I relent.. my mind jumps around in thoughts for a minute or so as it returns to normal.. the drowziness dissipates very quickly, sometimes here I reapply my awareness to the breath.. for it to happen all over again, othertimes I might lose track completely for 5 minutes before realising I'm not on the breath. Return to it and then it happens all over again. It always seems to happen if I manage to stay on the breath for around 6 to 10 full breaths, other times I might lose awareness before I reach this number and go off on some track of thought.

My question is... am I doing something wrong, or is this just a natural process of my mind being weak in concentration and with each attempt at getting and fighting this drowziness I am making it stronger?

I hope that makes sense.

Thank you for your help


Update:

I have just been experimenting with different postures. Up until now I used a small wooden bench to mediate on, just now I tried sitting cross legged on a cushion.. although it was more uncomfortable for my back and groin/hips, I noted that the above drowziness issue was almost non existant. I'm not ready yet to declare this the solution but I hope it is. The only problem is getting up afterward as one of my legs became completley numb! :D

Its good you are getting over the drowsiness. Are you just trying to do a straight Samantha meditation with Jhana as a goal? If so here is how I tend to do it:

Sit and take three large breaths in and out just to settle in.

Then you can either say "in" on an in breath and "out" on an out breath, or count 1, 2, 3 etc... But only count on the in OR out breath. Not both. While doing this don't get lost in the words, concentrate on the sensation and use the words to help keep the mind fixed there and from wandering and having other thoughts come up.

Unlike Vipassana if I'm trying to just do concentration I don't pay attention to thoughts. Think of it like walking though a field of bubbles, like kids blow. In Vipassana you pop all the bubbles as they come at you(you examine every thought, sensation, emotion, etc.. as it arises) while if you are doing concentration, you just walk through the field and let all the bubbles(thoughts, emotions etc..) pass you by with out giving them mind.

Eventually if you practice consistently and with effort you can gain very good concentration. You can also drop using "in" and "out" or counting once your concentration is built up as well.

Beware of the drowsiness though, people can fall into the "void" during meditation when that happens. Basically they will just go into an empty blank state removed from any concentration. You want to gain Jhana, which comes from very high concentration. Sloth is one of the hindrances, you must battle it.
chownah
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by chownah »

nicro,
"Then you can either say "in" on an in breath and "out" on an out breath", Do you mean we should say it (with the mouth) or we should think it (with the mind only)?
chownah
Nicro
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Nicro »

chownah wrote:nicro,
"Then you can either say "in" on an in breath and "out" on an out breath", Do you mean we should say it (with the mouth) or we should think it (with the mind only)?
chownah

Just mentally. Its important to concentrate on the sensation though, only use the "in" and "out" to help maintain that concentration.
daverupa
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by daverupa »

Nicro wrote:
chownah wrote:nicro,
"Then you can either say "in" on an in breath and "out" on an out breath", Do you mean we should say it (with the mouth) or we should think it (with the mind only)?
chownah

Just mentally. Its important to concentrate on the sensation though, only use the "in" and "out" to help maintain that concentration.
I'd go one farther: after in-out, add long-short, per the first tetrad of anapanasati.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Nicro
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by Nicro »

daverupa wrote:
Nicro wrote:
chownah wrote:nicro,
"Then you can either say "in" on an in breath and "out" on an out breath", Do you mean we should say it (with the mouth) or we should think it (with the mind only)?
chownah

Just mentally. Its important to concentrate on the sensation though, only use the "in" and "out" to help maintain that concentration.
I'd go one farther: after in-out, add long-short, per the first tetrad of anapanasati.

See, I always interpreted that as just being aware of it. Because, it seems you would have to wait until the end of the breath to know if it was long or short, if you do it while your breathing then you will just end up breathing long when you say long or short when you say short.
daverupa
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Re: Concentration meditation difficulties

Post by daverupa »

Nicro wrote:
daverupa wrote:I'd go one farther: after in-out, add long-short, per the first tetrad of anapanasati.
See, I always interpreted that as just being aware of it. Because, it seems you would have to wait until the end of the breath to know if it was long or short, if you do it while your breathing then you will just end up breathing long when you say long or short when you say short.
In meditation, I experience "the moment" not as a point-instant, but rather as something of a saddle-back. Thereupon, knowing long as long or short as short becomes part of the in-out mindfulness already established in the preparatory stage ("just mindful he breathes in, just mindful he breathes out") - the "it seems..." appears to suggest that you haven't tried it this way, that perhaps you imagine breathing as happening over a series of point-instants. This idea makes anapanasati a much more chaotic practice than treating "now" as having a broader application, in my experience. "Ack! that was a microsecond ago, therefore in the past, gah keep the mind on the present" is neither helpful nor in keeping with the instructions the Buddha gave. Anapanasati is a much more relaxed affair.

The first and second aspects of the first tetrad of anapanasati call for knowing long or short as they occur. It's having mindfulness encompass the whole breath in this way that allows you to experience the {breath <--> body} conditional relationship, the third aspect of the first tetrad. I'm not aware of any reason to choose to remain at the prep stage "just mindful he breathes in, just mindful he breathes out". The tetrads are wholesome practice.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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