Did anyone here attain jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Nyana
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Nyana »

Sanghamitta wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Indeed. Preferably with the focus on the texts and not personal experiences. This is standard Buddhist etiquette.
This is a good point. I'd extend this (if Geoff didn't already mean this) to texts by reputable teachers/commentators. I would prefer to avoid saying "In my experience it works like X" if I can find a passage that says roughly what I would have said, that I can quote as: "Ven. Y says it works like X".

And I certainly agree with Geoff that vipassana attainments are no less problematical to explain than jhana attainments (not that I have anything much to explain about either...). From what I can gather from various teachers it is very possible to severely misinterpret progress with the vipassana nanas.

:anjali:
Mike
It certainly is.
And I would be less bothered by Jnana talk if it were indeed conducted according to standard Buddhist etiquette.
Buddhists discussing, debating, and disagreeing with other Buddhists on a variety of subjects is almost as ancient as Buddhism itself.

This particular subject of debate appears in the Kathāvatthu, where, for a number of reasons, the proposed resolution isn't very convincing. It also appears in the Abhidharmakośabhāsya in terms somewhat related to certain aspects of contemporary discussions of the subject. After presenting both sides of the debate, Vasubandhu concludes by saying the following:
  • A certain school maintains the system that has been presented, but the ancient masters (pūrvācārya-s) are not in agreement on this. Consequently the point should be further examined.
If a learned Indian scholar monk of the caliber of Vasubandhu couldn't find a satisfactory resolution to the subtler points of disagreement, then we shouldn't be surprised or bothered by the fact that it is still a subject of debate 1600 years later.

All the best,

Geoff
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ñāṇa wrote:If a learned Indian scholar monk of the caliber of Vasubandhu couldn't find a satisfactory resolution to the subtler points of disagreement, then we shouldn't be surprised or bothered by the fact that it is still a subject of debate 1600 years later.
And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Freawaru »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:If a learned Indian scholar monk of the caliber of Vasubandhu couldn't find a satisfactory resolution to the subtler points of disagreement, then we shouldn't be surprised or bothered by the fact that it is still a subject of debate 1600 years later.
And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
For discussion I agree. For actual practice it can complicate things, though. As I learned in this thread:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8957" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there are not only different definitions of smatha and jhana but also different definitions of access concentration. If one reads (or hears) an instruction such as "enter access concentration and then ..." either by scripture or a teacher one first has to know which access concentration is meant. Of course, the obvious solution is to explore them all :juggling:
Nyana
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
And the fact that the discussion is still presently occurring at all is a very good thing. It's a sign of a healthy, vibrant, living tradition peopled by diverse individuals who are actually interested in practice. Otherwise, Buddhist meditation would be little more than an academic curiosity and the sutta records and classical meditation manuals just dusty museum pieces.

All the best,

Geoff
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Viscid
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Viscid »

rowyourboat wrote:I think as long as we avoid creating conceited 'teacher' roles for ourselves and just help people out with kindness, to the best of the abilities that we posses, then there is nothing wrong in that. It is easy to become attached to being a 'teacher' or 'attained' to this stage or other - leave all that behind - they are just more self-views (sakkaya ditti) caused by not properly recognising the five aggregates within.
:goodpost:

There needs to be an internal evaluation of one's desires for teaching: Is it because you want to be respected by others, or because you want to help them selflessly? Though I'd imagine if one is particularly deluded, they'd just convince themselves that they're being selfless..
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
rowyourboat
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by rowyourboat »

Viscid wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:I think as long as we avoid creating conceited 'teacher' roles for ourselves and just help people out with kindness, to the best of the abilities that we posses, then there is nothing wrong in that. It is easy to become attached to being a 'teacher' or 'attained' to this stage or other - leave all that behind - they are just more self-views (sakkaya ditti) caused by not properly recognising the five aggregates within.
:goodpost:

There needs to be an internal evaluation of one's desires for teaching: Is it because you want to be respected by others, or because you want to help them selflessly? Though I'd imagine if one is particularly deluded, they'd just convince themselves that they're being selfless..
Just keep at it, Viscid! :)

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
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Viscid
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Viscid »

rowyourboat wrote: Just keep at it, Viscid! :)
:embarassed:
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Geoff for the interesting historical perspective.
Ñāṇa wrote: Buddhists discussing, debating, and disagreeing with other Buddhists on a variety of subjects is almost as ancient as Buddhism itself.

This particular subject of debate appears in the Kathāvatthu, where, for a number of reasons, the proposed resolution isn't very convincing. It also appears in the Abhidharmakośabhāsya in terms somewhat related to certain aspects of contemporary discussions of the subject. After presenting both sides of the debate, Vasubandhu concludes by saying the following:
  • A certain school maintains the system that has been presented, but the ancient masters (pūrvācārya-s) are not in agreement on this. Consequently the point should be further examined.
If a learned Indian scholar monk of the caliber of Vasubandhu couldn't find a satisfactory resolution to the subtler points of disagreement, then we shouldn't be surprised or bothered by the fact that it is still a subject of debate 1600 years later.
tiltbillings wrote:And it probably not a bad thing that there is such variation in the understanding of what jhana encompasses.
Ñāṇa wrote: And the fact that the discussion is still presently occurring at all is a very good thing. It's a sign of a healthy, vibrant, living tradition peopled by diverse individuals who are actually interested in practice. Otherwise, Buddhist meditation would be little more than an academic curiosity and the sutta records and classical meditation manuals just dusty museum pieces.
Yes. It continues to surprise me when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars, rather than read as fascinating ongoing discussion about practice.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by daverupa »

I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Freauwaru,
Freawaru wrote: The question is: do you want to think in terms of authority or in terms of expertism? An authority is a guru, a leader. An expert is someone you consult regarding a specific problem, may it be scriptural or meditative. There is no authority at all when you think in terms of expertism. And thus no leading astray.
Perhaps I didn't explain myself well.

If I see a question that I think I can answer from my experience, but I know has been written/spoken about by a teacher I trust I prefer to give a quotation from that teacher, and say "My experience is consistent with what X says here...". It's not a question of "authority". The point is that those teachers have explained the issues to thousands of students, so their explanation will tend to be better, and more general, than mine would be.

My impression from discussions with various teachers and friends is that practising in certain ways leads to somewhat predictable results, at least on the level of my practise (I can't comment on the more advanced levels of insight discussed by ancient and modern teachers...). On a Goenka retreat it seems common to get that "dissolving" feeling that Goenka describes as "bhangha". With Mahasi-style retreat practice it seems common to observe the motion of one's feet or abdomen become discontinuous, like under a strobe light in the disco... So it seems to me to be sensible to point a questioner at general discussions of them, rather than just answer using one's own experience, since the exact experiences do vary from person to person.

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
Really? I see rather a lot of :strawman: wheeled out in your posts.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p139857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:
daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
Really? I see rather a lot of :strawman: wheeled out in your posts.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p139857" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


:anjali:
Mike
And I sometimes struggle to accept the criticism, yet I do, and I really strive to avoid it. I thought you might be appreciative of having it pointed out on your end, however rare. :shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:I'm also very grateful for the recent flurry of jhana discussion the forum has fielded of late. It's been very edifying to have access to such succinct and comprehensive discussions.
mikenz66 wrote:... when those ancient commentaries and meditation manuals are dismissed as if they were merely some academic exercise by dull scholars...
:strawman:
And your basis for your claim that Mike's statement is a strawman?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Reductor
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by Reductor »

Five pages. Not bad.
:popcorn:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did anyone here attain jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

thereductor wrote:Five pages. Not bad.
:popcorn:
And alot of it is actually rather interesting and useful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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