Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Organisational work, teaching, Sunday school syllabus, charitable work, outreach, sharing of resources, artwork, etc.
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Sanghamitta » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:58 pm

Perhaps he was navel-gazing but got waylaid.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:33 pm

Aloka wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Hi bosom,......
Er... I know that's often the first place men look when they meet a woman,

with kind wishes,

Aloka
Hi Spiny,

Here is an interesting case example - what can you say about Aloka's state of mind from this comment? What dhamma does (s)he need to hear? :rofl:

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5794
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Aloka » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:17 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:Perhaps he was navel-gazing but got waylaid.
Good point, Sanghamitta ! :twothumbsup:

.....Oh - and I'm a 'she,' Matheesha !....and its more to do with often observing that men's eyes don't always reach one's face at first, rather than my general state of mind .

Sorry - back to topic again.


:anjali:

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:00 pm

Hi Aloka

No problem. Sanghamitta can be quite funny at times.

:focus:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:23 am

Aloka wrote:and its more to do with often observing that men's eyes don't always reach one's face at first,
I thought men looking down was a mark of subservience.... :jumping:

Spiny

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:11 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Aloka wrote:and its more to do with often observing that men's eyes don't always reach one's face at first,
I thought men looking down was a mark of subservience.... :jumping:

Spiny
Hmm maybe that rule needs to be revised - nowadays maybe all they see when they do that, is cleavage. :tongue:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:07 pm

The Buddha was not averse to stating what was painful to hear. He was asked if he ever used harsh speech - he said he did- if it meant that kusala (the wholesome) would arise in the person he addressed in that manner, as a result. This is of course sometimes required, with difficult students. Once again though, we must be careful of the motives behind this type of speech- it might be based on craving or ego, rather than metta or equanimity (easier with the latter).

Interestingly, one of the harshest punishments you could get as a monk was what was called 'brahmadanda' : other monks were asked not to speak with the offending monk! This happened to Ven Channa who was too conceited to listen to any instruction he was given. I suppose harshest punishment was to be thrown out of the monkhood.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jun 24, 2011 8:31 am

rowyourboat wrote:The Buddha was not averse to stating what was painful to hear. He was asked if he ever used harsh speech - he said he did- if it meant that kusala (the wholesome) would arise in the person he addressed in that manner, as a result. This is of course sometimes required, with difficult students. Once again though, we must be careful of the motives behind this type of speech- it might be based on craving or ego, rather than metta or equanimity (easier with the latter).
Yes, and unless we know somebody really well it's difficult to judge what effect our words will have.

Spiny

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:50 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The Buddha was not averse to stating what was painful to hear. He was asked if he ever used harsh speech - he said he did- if it meant that kusala (the wholesome) would arise in the person he addressed in that manner, as a result. This is of course sometimes required, with difficult students. Once again though, we must be careful of the motives behind this type of speech- it might be based on craving or ego, rather than metta or equanimity (easier with the latter).
Yes, and unless we know somebody really well it's difficult to judge what effect our words will have.

Spiny
True - we must be mindful when we speak I guess - are we doing it because of unwholesome intentions, or do we really want the good of the other.. we need to focus in on our minds, if we are to engage in the use of harsher speech.
"Mahanama, inasmuch as a lay follower is possessed of faith himself, and rouses others to possess faith; is possessed of virtue himself, and rouses others to possess virtue; is possessed of liberality himself, and rouses others to possess liberality; is himself desirous of meeting with monks, and rouses others to meet with monks; is himself desirous of hearing the true Dhamma, and rouses others to hear the true Dhamma; is himself habitually mindful of the Dhamma that is heard, and rouses others to be mindful of the Dhamma; is himself ascertained of the meaning/benefit of the Dhamma that is heard, and rouses others to ascertain the meaning/benefit; having known the meaning/benefit, having known the Dhamma, is himself committed to the practice according to the Dhamma, and rouses others to be committed to the practice according to the Dhamma; in that way, Mahanama, a lay follower is engaged in his own welfare and in others' welfare."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .kuma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above sutta has a nice framework of the kinds of teaching we must do with others. It is not only stating dhamma facts, but so much more, as can be seen. This whole framework of how one goes about practicing the dhamma must be taught, as a skills set.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:38 am

rowyourboat wrote:The above sutta has a nice framework of the kinds of teaching we must do with others. It is not only stating dhamma facts, but so much more, as can be seen. This whole framework of how one goes about practicing the dhamma must be taught, as a skills set.
Yes, I think it's about leading by example - that can be a good practice in itself. So it's walking the walk, not just talking the talk... ;-)

Spiny

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:25 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The above sutta has a nice framework of the kinds of teaching we must do with others. It is not only stating dhamma facts, but so much more, as can be seen. This whole framework of how one goes about practicing the dhamma must be taught, as a skills set.
Yes, I think it's about leading by example - that can be a good practice in itself. So it's walking the walk, not just talking the talk... ;-)

Spiny
Indeed. This sutta quote explains walking the walk, talking the talk even more.

.
"There will be, in the course of the future, monks undeveloped in body,[1] undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment. They — being undeveloped in body, undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind, undeveloped in discernment — will give full ordination to others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. They — being undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment — will give full ordination to still others and will not be able to discipline them in heightened virtue, heightened mind, heightened discernment. These too will then be undeveloped in body... virtue... mind... discernment. Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:49 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The Buddha was not averse to stating what was painful to hear. He was asked if he ever used harsh speech - he said he did- if it meant that kusala (the wholesome) would arise in the person he addressed in that manner, as a result. This is of course sometimes required, with difficult students. Once again though, we must be careful of the motives behind this type of speech- it might be based on craving or ego, rather than metta or equanimity (easier with the latter).
Yes, and unless we know somebody really well it's difficult to judge what effect our words will have.

Spiny
Bodom had just posted this nice sutta:
How to admonish another skillfully

"O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself?

[1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...?

[2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...?

[3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...?

[4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life — have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...?

[5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...?

"These five conditions must be investigated in himself.

"And what other five conditions must be established in himself?

[1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not?

[2] "Do I speak of facts, or not?

[3] "Do I speak gently or harshly?

[4] "Do I speak profitable words or not?

[5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious?

"O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another."

— AN V (From The Patimokkha, Ñanamoli Thera, trans.)
with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:23 am

I regularly get enquires from people with mental health problems, some have been informally referred by medical types on the basis that meditation would be good for them. From previous experience as a social worker I have a reasonably good understanding of these issues and how to deal with them, but I'd be interested to hear how others approach this.

Spiny

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5794
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by Aloka » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:16 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:From previous experience as a social worker I have a reasonably good understanding of these issues and how to deal with them, but I'd be interested to hear how others approach this.

Spiny
Oh,I'm confused now, was that a change-over then? - I thought you once said you worked as a classroom assistant to schoolteachers like myself, Spiny.

rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Teachin the dhamma, and teachers

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:55 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:I regularly get enquires from people with mental health problems, some have been informally referred by medical types on the basis that meditation would be good for them. From previous experience as a social worker I have a reasonably good understanding of these issues and how to deal with them, but I'd be interested to hear how others approach this.

Spiny
Hi Spiney

To be succinct..

Psychosis- only light mindfulness, avoid concentration practices
depression- four noble truth contemplation, focusing on happy,pleasurable states, mindfulness to the exclusion of (negative) thoughts
anxiety- practices in the vitakkasantana sutta, exposure to the feared object (bhayaberava sutta), calming practices as adjunct
elation- calming practices
depression relapse prevention if a person has had more than 2 episodes of depression- mindfulness based cognitive therapy (focusing on mindfulness, concentration, acceptance, metta, learning about depression).

We are trying to 'detox' the thoughts of their negative associations. Remove negative emotions. Promote self acceptance. Objectify thoughts so that we can work with them and not see them as 'truths' etc.

I think it is important to note that Buddhist practice is not an alternative to therapy. It might be better seen as a helpful add on. Meditation can make hallucinations and delusions (psychosis) worse. Deep vipassana or even simple contemplations of suffering are best avoided in depression, unless with an experienced teacher.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests