Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

rowyourboat wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:You could argue via quantum physics that everything including consciousness is energy.
You could, but it would be nonsense.
I'm wondering whether Buddhists are generally mistrusting of science
Given that my bachelor's degree is physics, and my master's degree is physics, and I have three years of doctorate-level research under my belt in physics, and I'm now a qualified physics teacher who is teaching physics this summer at the university before starting my job in September as a physics teacher at a prestigious grammar school, may I suggest that this Buddhist is not mistrusting of science?
rowyourboat wrote:Quantum mechanics now seems to famously prove the idea that consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena (google double slit experiment)
A bad misunderstanding of probability distribution functions and quantum phenomena. The uncertainty principle and observer effect are often confused. The link you make to consciousness is nonsense, as is the film you mention. As this is a Buddhist forum, can you tell us what this pervasive 'consciousness that gives rise to material phenomena' is? The English word 'consciousness' is not very useful in a Buddhist discussion and even less helpful in a physics discussion
rowyourboat
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by rowyourboat »

Mawkish, Mike- do you mind if I pm you both?
With Metta

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& Upekkha
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mikenz66
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi RYB,

Feel free to PM me. However, I've stated my position many times that almost all these discussions of quantum mechanics and Buddhism and consciousness appear to me to be written by people who do not understand one or the other, or do not understand either. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I find that discussing these issues with physics graduates is not easy, so discussing them with someone who does not have at least that background is extremely difficult.

:anjali:
Mike
Freawaru
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Freawaru »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi RYB,

Feel free to PM me. However, I've stated my position many times that almost all these discussions of quantum mechanics and Buddhism and consciousness appear to me to be written by people who do not understand one or the other, or do not understand either. I don't want to sound dismissive, but I find that discussing these issues with physics graduates is not easy, so discussing them with someone who does not have at least that background is extremely difficult.

:anjali:
Mike
As the subject seems to come up again and again maybe it would be a good idea to discuss it openly. Then one can refer or quote to the thread whenever the question arises again.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

Since this is in the meditative section, rather than side-tracking the discussion with issues that do not pertain to meditation, it might be worthwhile to discuss how the material elements are used as a meditative practice.
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.
The Reflection on the Modes of Materiality (Elements, Dhatu)
"And further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'

"O bhikkhus, in whatever manner, a clever cow-butcher or a cow-butcher's apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it by way of portions, should be sitting at the junction of a four-cross-road; in the same manner, a bhikkhu reflects on just this body, according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the modes of materiality, thinking thus: 'There are in this body the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.'
-- MN 10
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

tiltbillings wrote:
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.
Yes, this is a good one, though I prefer the 6-element version which adds on space and consciousness.

Spiny
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5. The Reflection on the Material Elements
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body, however it be placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the element of earth, the element of water, the element of fire, the element of wind."

Just as if, monks, a clever cow-butcher or his apprentice, having slaughtered a cow and divided it into portions, should be sitting at the junction of four high roads, in the same way, a monk reflects on this very body, as it is placed or disposed, by way of the material elements: "There are in this body the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind."
-- MN 10.
Yes, this is a good one, though I prefer the 6-element version which adds on space and consciousness.

Spiny
Maybe; however, with space in particular there is an added level of complexity. There may be a reason why it is not part of the Satipatthana Sutta lists.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by Freawaru »

VictoryInTruth wrote:Does all matter (rupa) have a denser vibrational form of energy? When reading about the aggregates of which matter is the first aggregate it states that matter consists of solidity, fluidity, heat or temperature and motion or vibration.

Is this vibrational quality of matter a denser form of energy? Does everything in the universe(s) consist of this vibrational energy...even an object such as a rock but on a denser level?

Thank you for your patience with my beginner questions.

:anjali:
Rupa (form) is constructed in our brain via the sensory input of the Somatosensory system and specific genetically designed mental patterns to interpret these information.
The somatosensory system is a diverse sensory system comprising the receptors and processing centres to produce the sensory modalities such as touch, temperature, proprioception (body position), and nociception (pain). The sensory receptors cover the skin and epithelia, skeletal muscles, bones and joints, internal organs, and the cardiovascular system. While touch (also, more formally, tactition; adjectival form: "tactile" or "somatosensory") is considered one of the five traditional senses, the impression of touch is formed from several modalities. In medicine, the colloquial term touch is usually replaced with somatic senses to better reflect the variety of mechanisms involved.

The system reacts to diverse stimuli using different receptors: thermoreceptors, nociceptors, mechanoreceptors and chemoreceptors. Transmission of information from the receptors passes via sensory nerves through tracts in the spinal cord and into the brain. Processing primarily occurs in the primary somatosensory area in the parietal lobe of the cerebral cortex.
The cortical homunculus was devised by Wilder Penfield.

At its simplest, the system works when activity in a sensory neuron is triggered by a specific stimulus such as heat; this signal eventually passes to an area in the brain uniquely attributed to that area on the body—this allows the processed stimulus to be felt at the correct location. The point-to-point mapping of the body surfaces in the brain is called a homunculus and is essential in the creation of a body image. This brain-surface ("cortical") map is not immutable, however. Dramatic shifts can occur in response to stroke or injury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An object such as "rock" is constructed by input of the mechanoreceptors,
A mechanoreceptor is a sensory receptor that responds to mechanical pressure or distortion. There are four main types in the glabrous skin of humans: Pacinian corpuscles, Meissner's corpuscles, Merkel's discs, and Ruffini corpuscles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanoreceptors" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Pacinian corpuscles are responsible for sensitivity to vibration and pressure.
Lamellar corpuscles or Pacinian corpuscles are one of the four major types of mechanoreceptor. They are nerve endings in the skin, responsible for sensitivity to vibration and pressure. Vibrational role may be used to detect surface e.g. rough vs. smooth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacinian_corpuscle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and so are the Meissner corpuscles:
Meissner's corpuscles (or tactile corpuscles) are a type of mechanoreceptor.[1] They are a type of nerve ending in the skin that is responsible for sensitivity to light touch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissner%27s_corpuscle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
while the Ruffini corpuscles are responsible to monitor movement.
This spindle-shaped receptor is sensitive to skin stretch, and contributes to the kinesthetic sense of and control of finger position and movement.[1] It is believed to be useful for monitoring slippage of objects along the surface of the skin, allowing modulation of grip on an object.
So it looks like there is actually a difference between motion and vibration. Vibration goes together with pressure (solidity/earth) and distortion while motion has it's own receptors.
alan
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

I love science. I love that it is rational, and that it willingly throws away past assumptions when they are proven incorrect. I'm totally for applying a rationalist perspective on the social contract. You could say I'm a rational pragmatist.
But,
An assumption that the higher levels of physics has some relevance to our experiential existence seems suspect.
Alan's three rules of Quantum Mechanics clearly state:
1) You don't really understand it.
2) The handful of people on this planet who have the ability to get close to an understanding of it can't contextualize it in any meaningful way.
3) Because of that, it is always foolish to compare it with anything. Doing so invariably makes you look like a pompous ass. Don't be like that.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:I love science. I love that it is rational, and that it willingly throws away past assumptions when they are proven incorrect. I'm totally for applying a rationalist perspective on the social contract. You could say I'm a rational pragmatist.
But,
An assumption that the higher levels of physics has some relevance to our experiential existence seems suspect.
Alan's three rules of Quantum Mechanics clearly state:
1) You don't really understand it.
2) The handful of people on this planet who have the ability to get close to an understanding of it can't contextualize it in any meaningful way.
3) Because of that, it is always foolish to compare it with anything. Doing so invariably makes you look like a pompous ass. Don't be like that.
That is good, and now I wonder if the subject of rupa could be discussed as a meditation subject, since this is a meditation section. Otherwise this thread may need to find a new home.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

Keep the focus on the subject that matters.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Keep the focus on the subject that matters.
Matter matters as a subject of awaremess.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

Seems we're in agreement on this matter.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Seems we're in agreement on this matter.
And that is what is dense vibrations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Is matter (rupa) a denser vibrational form of energy?

Post by alan »

You're nothing if not dogged, tilt. I"ll give you that. And I admire it.
Just wondering if you get the joke. Sometimes, you seem too serious.
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