Practical Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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octathlon
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by octathlon »

What is missing in focusing total attention to one single object all the time is wisdom. Your total attention should be coupled with wise attention. What is wise attention? It is attention accompanied by the three wholesome roots. What are the wholesome roots? They are generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom. This means that when you pay attention to something always attempt to pay attention without greed, hatred or delusion, but with the thought of generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom. These three are called wholesome roots; greed, hatred and delusion are called unwholesome roots. Don’t let your mind be affected by unwholesome roots when you pay attention to something. Let the thought of generosity, loving-kindness and wisdom dominate your mind while paying attention to anything.
The problem I have with these instructions about applying wisdom vs. delusion, which appear in so many places, is understanding how to do that. When I read "pay attention without greed or hatred/with generosity and loving-kindness", I understand what that means because I have experience of all those things. But when I read "pay attention without delusion/with wisdom" I don't understand what to do, since I am still deluded and not wise. I can generate an attitude of generosity or loving-kindness, but how do I pay attention with wisdom?
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bodom
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by bodom »

octathlon wrote:The problem I have with these instructions about applying wisdom vs. delusion, which appear in so many places, is understanding how to do that. When I read "pay attention without greed or hatred/with generosity and loving-kindness", I understand what that means because I have experience of all those things. But when I read "pay attention without delusion/with wisdom" I don't understand what to do, since I am still deluded and not wise. I can generate an attitude of generosity or loving-kindness, but how do I pay attention with wisdom?
As Bhante G says in the article paying attention with wisdom is seeing things as impermanent, unsatisfactory and selfless.
This is where you really need your wise attention. This is where you must learn to see impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and selflessness in the object you are watching. Your wise consideration indicates that neither the object you perceive nor your feeling or sensation regarding the object remains the same even for two consecutive moments. You will not have the same sensation later on. You change, the object you perceive changes. With wise attention you will see that everything is impermanent. This knowledge of impermanence allows you to let go of your resentment. When you see with wisdom that everything that is unsatisfactory is impermanent, then you see the connection between unsatisfactoriness and greed. As you are attached to an impermanent object you will be disappointed with the change of the object that you are so attached to. When you have wise consideration you see that which is impermanent and unsatisfactory is without self.
You may see an object, for instance. That object may happen to be attractive, beautiful or pleasing to your eyes or it may be unattractive. At that time if you do not have wise attention, you may then end up cultivating greed or resentment for the object or you may get utterly confused ideas about the object. Or you may think that the object is permanent instead of realizing that it is impermanent, satisfactory instead of unsatisfactory, or having a self instead of being selfless.
When any sight, sound, smell, taste, touch or thought appears to be identical with self, look at it as an unreal concept inculcated in your mind by conditioning through generations of wrong notions and look at it with wisdom.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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tiltbillings
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote: . . .
Now you are just big time picking nit -- at best. A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

I do not think the intense concentration fueled by craving which a cat uses to successfully kill another creature can, by any stretch of the imagination, move one closer to enlightenment.

''Wholesome actions produce wholesome effects, unwholesome actions produce unwholesome effects. As you sow, so shall you reap. Above all it is the volition which precedes the action which determines whether it is wholesome or unwholesome; this means an action where there is a desire for a result. The Buddha said, "It is volition (or will - Cetana) which I call kamma. Through volition one performs kamma by means of body, speech and mind."
This desire, no matter how mild it may be, is a mild form of craving (tanha) and it lies behind practically every activity of life. Therefore to live and to desire are more or less the same thing. Desiring is a creative act - it creates kamma. Our personality is moulded by the accumulation of these desires. These are acts of thought, word and deed. Both kamma and vipaka are essentially mental, but we also use the term 'action' to denote acts of word or deed. There is an ascending order of importance: if I think "I want to kill you", that is not as strong as saying "I want to kill you", which is in turn is not as strong as actually carrying out the deed. Every volitional action has consequences.''

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with metta
Chris
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octathlon
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by octathlon »

bodom wrote:As Bhante G says in the article paying attention with wisdom is seeing things as impermanent, unsatisfactory and selfless.
Thank you, yes, that's the exact answer. I'm just saying that although I understand them as concepts on an intellectual level, I don't truly see those characteristics, especially anatta. But you are right, I will try to keep awareness of those 3 marks in mind along with generosity and loving-kindness.
Thanks Bodom.
:anjali:
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ground
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
Well you simply cannot know since you are not a cat and the Buddha's teachings that we know were not addressed to cats.

Kind regards
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Ben
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by Ben »

Greetings Ming,
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
Well you simply cannot know since you are not a cat and the Buddha's teachings that we know were not addressed to cats.

Kind regards
I respectfully disagree. What do you imagine might be the state of mind of an animal hunting another animal?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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tiltbillings
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
Well you simply cannot know since you are not a cat and the Buddha's teachings that we know were not addressed to cats.

Kind regards
But he did talk about the uniqueness of human birth as a platform for awakening compared to other realms of existence, including animals. My point stands. Also, you really have not addressed my point, though you have tried to dodge it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by ground »

Ben wrote:Greetings Ming,
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
Well you simply cannot know since you are not a cat and the Buddha's teachings that we know were not addressed to cats.

Kind regards
I respectfully disagree. What do you imagine might be the state of mind of an animal hunting another animal?
kind regards

Ben
Ben


does your question refer to the state while hunting or any other time?
I would like to remind of Angulimala in this context.

Please note that I do not expect an answer because my question is a rethorical question.


Regardless of what your question refers to. I find it rather pointless to imagine or impute anything with reference to a cat's mind or quality of attention. I do not know and nobody else can know. Why should I imagine something?


Kind regards
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ground
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A cat hunting a mouse is not going have a quality of mind that is conducive to awakening.
Well you simply cannot know since you are not a cat and the Buddha's teachings that we know were not addressed to cats.

Kind regards
But he did talk about the uniqueness of human birth as a platform for awakening compared to other realms of existence, including animals.
This is no evidence for a cat's quality of attention.
tiltbillings wrote:Also, you really have not addressed my point, though you have tried to dodge it.
What point? I feel I replied to everything consistently although it may not be to your satisfaction.


Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote: does your question refer to the state while hunting or any other time?
I would like to remind of Angulimala in this context.
So, Angulimala had positive, wholesome mental factors at play when he was stalking and killing his prey?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote: does your question refer to the state while hunting or any other time?
I would like to remind of Angulimala in this context.
So, Angulimala had positive, wholesome mental factors at play when he was stalking and killing his prey?
Since I am human and Angulimala is supposed to have been human too I am inclined to answer in the negative.

Kind regards
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tiltbillings
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the Buddha did talk about the uniqueness of human birth as a platform for awakening compared to other realms of existence, including animals.
This is no evidence for a cat's quality of attention.
Now, you are again doing a two-step side-step dance to avoid the question.
tiltbillings wrote:Also, you really have not addressed my point, though you have tried to dodge it.
What point? I feel I replied to everything consistently although it may not be to your satisfaction.
You have consistently dodged the questions and the points raised, answering nothing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote: does your question refer to the state while hunting or any other time?
I would like to remind of Angulimala in this context.
So, Angulimala had positive, wholesome mental factors at play when he was stalking and killing his prey?
Since I am human and Angulimala is supposed to have been human too I am inclined to answer in the negative.

Kind regards
There is no reason to assume a cat caught in the hunt is any different, in general, from a human caught up in the hunt. And since humans are in a generally unique position in terms of awakening according to the Buddha's teachings, awakened qualities of mind are not something kammically available to a cat and certainly not when hunting and killing a mouse.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Practical Vipassana

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the Buddha did talk about the uniqueness of human birth as a platform for awakening compared to other realms of existence, including animals.
This is no evidence for a cat's quality of attention.
Now, you are again doing a two-step side-step dance to avoid the question.
No I just stick to the original topic of our conversation.

tiltbillings wrote:Also, you really have not addressed my point, though you have tried to dodge it.
What point? I feel I replied to everything consistently although it may not be to your satisfaction.
You have consistently dodged the questions and the points raised, answering nothing.[/quote]
You may insist to know what you cannot know and I say that you cannot know what is inaccessible for you.
We may leave it at that.

Kind regards
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