I am sorry, I cannot help you with your confusion. My understanding of meditation according to the suttas is a holistic one so therefore it does not seem inappropriate to bring in such things as the definition of what right concentration is. Your confusion about thinking being abandoned seems a trivial matter. Abandoning/freeing/subsiding take your pick. I thought my point was quite obvious - thinking is important as a way into jhana and establishing a right view - as one progresses thinking subsides or is abandoned, I am sorry if this is confusing. Abandoning is "letting go" not suppression.beeblebrox wrote:I agree, but this thread is confused, (to me). In some posts Legolas says that thinking is OK (as per the topic of this thread), which I agree with. In other posts, Legolas implies that they shouldn't be suppressed (which I agree with), but abandoned (which I don't agree, since it's still a form of suppression). They just shouldn't be clung to.IanAnd wrote:While I understand the distinction being made, if you take what legolas wrote in context and understand it not from the perspective that you presented it in (through isolating one idea stated in one sentence), but from within the context of what was written, the term "right concentration" implies "proper utilization" of the jhanas, don't you think?
Then he brings up the "Right Concentration" as being jhana, with isn't wrong in itself... but why did he bring it up? He also seemed to shift to saying that the "noting" (or thinking) is not ideal... which was Tilt's position that he was arguing against in the first place... it seemed out of blue.
And then it seems to have to do with his problem of the "vipassana jhana." He also mentioned that it's a redundant phrase. To me "vipassana jhana" just means using the jhana correctly. That's basically what I was working from.
I think this thread is just confused. There is more agreement going on in here, than disagreement. It's silly.
In the suttas the preamble to attaining jhana is that the hindrances are abandoned i.e. let go. At this point the commentaries jump up and down and say that this is only temporary and that jhana only suppresses the hindrances. Now this is not what the Buddha says. He says the hindrances are abandoned(let go off) - now this may be a temporary affair(although the hindrances gradually diminish in day to day living through this practise) but the point is that they are abandoned not suppressed. Suppression is a commentarial view.
I was not the one who actually brought up the subject of noting. Whilst "noting" is a form of thought it does not appear to me to be very valuable in gaining an understanding of the dhamma, rather it is an intense concentration exercise - one more likely to result in suppression.
As per vipassana jhana. Would it be possible for you to explain to me the difference between vipassana jhana and the jhana found in the suttas? If there isnt one, then I agree it is silly that there is disagreement, but my confusion arises because calling it vipassana jhana seems to be making it different from what the Buddha was talking about.