Theravada book of the dead?

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greggorious
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Theravada book of the dead?

Post by greggorious »

Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Akuma »

Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
Unlike other traditions Theravada doesnt teach bardo / antarabhava / intermediate existence between death and rebirth.
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Goofaholix »

greggorious wrote:Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
Theravada is more concerned with the living.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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cooran
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by cooran »

Akuma wrote:
Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
Unlike other traditions Theravada doesnt teach bardo / antarabhava / intermediate existence between death and rebirth.

Hello all,

The Abhidhamma followers will say ‘no’
Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/49151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

– but there are other opinions …

‘’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Aloka
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Aloka »

greggorious wrote:Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?

The Tibetan book of the dead (Bardo teachings)wasn't taught by the Buddha. It was taught by the Indian tantric guru Padmasambhava who went to Tibet around the 9th century. Personally therefore, I cannot see how it is relevant to Theravada.


.
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by plwk »

If you want something to do with the dead try... this (Proceed with caution)
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Virgo
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Virgo »

Since one citta directly follows the next by way of proximity condition, there can be no gap between them. At the moment of death there is dying consciousness, which is immediately followed by rebirth consciousness citta with is a vipakacitta (result due to kamma). That is followed by bhavanga cittas and so on. So the answer is that rebirth is immediate. If one were to be born in some other "plane" first, such as a bardo, one would have to die again before taking on another body, so the idea is not found in Theravada.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Greg,
greggorious wrote:Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
Whether one feels there is room for an intermediate state (and there's a few varying views above for your consideration), Theravada certainly stays away from issuing any unique instructions regarding what to do in an intermediate state (if there even is one).

Accordingly, I don't think it's anything worth being overly concerned about, otherwise the Buddha would have let us know...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by daverupa »

retrofuturist wrote:Accordingly, I don't think it's anything worth being overly concerned about, otherwise the Buddha would have let us know...
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Moggalana »

Let it come. Let it be. Let it go.
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BlackBird
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by BlackBird »

cooran wrote:
Akuma wrote:
Just out of interest, is there a Theravada version of the Tibetan book of the dead? The Tibetan traditions seem to be very clear and concise in their beliefs during the after death state. Is there such a thing in this tradition, or does Therevada stay away from all that?
Unlike other traditions Theravada doesnt teach bardo / antarabhava / intermediate existence between death and rebirth.

Hello all,

The Abhidhamma followers will say ‘no’
Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/49151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

– but there are other opinions …

‘’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Well that sutta clearly states that there is some sort of intermediary state between the two. So it seems we have found an interesting sticking point between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma, I would be interested to know how those who are versed in the Abhidhamma attempt to resolve this seeming contradiction.

metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Virgo
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Virgo »

BlackBird wrote:
cooran wrote:

Hello all,

The Abhidhamma followers will say ‘no’
Bardo - any 'antaraabhava' or the intermediate state in Theravada?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/49151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

– but there are other opinions …

‘’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
Hi Chris.

Very interesting post.

It would seem that the sutta categorically refers to some intermediary period between lives and yet the Abhidhamma emphatically denies the possibility. I am very interested to know how those versed in the Abhidhamma might resolve this seeming contradiction between Sutta and Abhidhamma.
What is being referred to in the Sutta here is why the mind stream doesn't just "stop" after death. Why is it reborn? What sustains it to 'become' again in another rebirth. It is not referring to any intermediate realm. The passage refers to craving being the sustenance that keeps rebirth going again and again, even though a body, which the mind stream is born with dies. It does not refer to another in between realm where the mind is sustained by craving until it is reborn.

Kevin

’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."
Kutuhalasala Sutta: With Vacchagotta S.N. 44.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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BlackBird
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by BlackBird »

Hi Virgo. Interesting take. I have to disagree in your reading of the sutta however, it is pretty catigorical, and I am not convinced a less than literal interpretation is logically permitted.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Virgo
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by Virgo »

BlackBird wrote:Hi Virgo. Interesting take. I have to disagree in your reading of the sutta however, it is pretty catigorical, and I am not convinced a less than literal interpretation is logically permitted.
Hello BlackBird,

That's fine. But if you ask me the translation is probably poor. I don't speak Pali myself, but being familiar with this doctrine in Theravada and looking at the passage, I can see how the passage may easily be misinterpreted, especially by a translator. A better translation would probably be:

'And when a being dies and his body has no more life in it, what is the reason that rebirth occurs, even though the body has died?"
"Vaccha, when a being dies and the body has no more life, It is because of craving that there must be rebirth, for craving is what causes (or sustains) rebirth at that time."

As opposed to this translation:

’And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?"
"Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time."

Of course this is my feeling. I would love to see what some Pali experts have to say about it.

Best,

Virgo.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Theravada book of the dead?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Virgo wrote:Of course this is my feeling. I would love to see what some Pali experts have to say about it.
Well, I'm certainly not one of those... but there is yet another way in which the meaning of this phrase could be translated (though it's bound to raise a few eyebrows, though will not be too unfamiliar to those exposed to the phenomenological interpretations of some Theravada exponents).

What is referred to in the suttas as jati (commonly translated as "birth" or "rebirth") relates to I-making and perceptions of a solid, stable self. If you look up its traditional Indian usage, the word "jati" actually means something like this (source: Wikipedia)...
(the word literally means thus born) is the term used to denote clans, tribes, communities and sub-communities in India. It is a term used across religions. In Indian society each jāti typically has an association with a traditional job function or tribe, although religious beliefs (e.g. Sri Vaishnavism or Veera Shaivism) or linguistic groupings define some jatis. A person's surname typically reflects a community (jati) association: thus Gandhi = perfume seller, Dhobi = washerman, Srivastava = military scribe, etc. In any given location in India 500 or more jatis may co-exist, although the exact composition will differ from district to district.
In other words, it is identification, the perception of an I and the association of the I with respect to, and relative to the so-called "outside world". It is "me, in the world"... and whilst "me" or "I" is the most fundamental form of identify, there is also, "Paul the Buddhist", "Paul the music fan", "Paul the father", "Paul the retrofuturist", "Paul the Australian" etc. When "I" identify as such, "I" come to exist, and thereby subject "myself" to change, decay, and sorrow. When I am a father, I experience a father's suffering (but when I'm not, I don't).... when I am a son, I experience a son's suffering (but when I'm not, I don't) etc. If you don't "be" (bhava) anything, you will not suffer.

Taking all that into account, the phrase may mean that even when identification of self is not related to the body, there is still the experience of existence, due to craving (i.e. there is still differentiation between 'self' and other, and a desire to appropriate or reject some of the other).

Feel free to disregard if that was not useful, or if it was confusing - some people do not like the phenomenological approach to the Dhamma taught by some Theravada bhikkhus and I respect that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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