Mental Noting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Mental Noting

Post by meindzai »

I have always had trouble with mental noting techniques in Vipassana, so I've generally not used them. I've tried working from the writings of Mahasi Sayadaw but I've found them to be too much for me, as in, too many labels. I always found that I spent more time obsessing about labels, worrying about whether something should be labeled or not, making sure I chose the right one, figuring out how to categorize things, etc.

I think labels should bring attention to sensations and mind objects but I don't think that amount of precision is useful for me. Any recommendations? Or even just tell me what list you use. I'd like to divide it more or less into the four foundations of mindfulness or something similar. What labels do you use for the body, (or sensations), feelings, thoughts, mind objects?

-M
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Mental Noting

Post by tiltbillings »

meindzai wrote:I have always had trouble with mental noting techniques in Vipassana, so I've generally not used them. I've tried working from the writings of Mahasi Sayadaw but I've found them to be too much for me, as in, too many labels. I always found that I spent more time obsessing about labels, worrying about whether something should be labeled or not, making sure I chose the right one, figuring out how to categorize things, etc.

I think labels should bring attention to sensations and mind objects but I don't think that amount of precision is useful for me. Any recommendations? Or even just tell me what list you use. I'd like to divide it more or less into the four foundations of mindfulness or something similar. What labels do you use for the body, (or sensations), feelings, thoughts, mind objects?

-M
Don't use mental noting. Just pay attention.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Mental Noting

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi meindzai,
meindzai wrote: I always found that I spent more time obsessing about labels, worrying about whether something should be labeled or not, making sure I chose the right one, figuring out how to categorize things, etc.
If that is happening, then, as Tilt says, you'd probably be better off not using noting, since that's certainly not what should be happening.

As U Pandita says here, it's about preventing, not creating, proliferation! It's completely the opposite of "creating a mental story".
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... structions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In making the verbal label, there is no need for complex language. One simple word is best. For the eye, ear, and tongue doors we simply say, “Seeing, seeing... Hearing, hearing... Tasting, tasting.” For sensations in the body we may choose a slightly more descriptive term like warmth, pressure, hardness, or motion. Mental objects appear to present a bewildering diversity, but actually they fall into just a few clear categories such as thinking, imagining, remembering, planning, and visualizing. But remember that in using the labeling technique, your goal is not to gain verbal skills. Labeling technique helps us to perceive clearly the actual qualities of our experience, without getting immersed in the content. It develops mental power and focus. In meditation we seek a deep, clear, precise awareness of the mind and body. This direct awareness shows us the truth about our lives, the actual nature of mental and physical processes
And Mahasi Sayadaw here:
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Fundame ... tml#Method" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Every time you see, hear, touch, or perceive, you must try to see the mental and physical processes that enter through the six sense doors as they really are. When you see, the seeing is real. This you must note as “seeing, seeing.” In the same way, when you hear, note “hearing.” When you smell, note “smelling.” When you taste, note “tasting.” When you touch, note “touching.” Tiredness, hotness, aches, and such unpleasant or unbearable sensations arise from contact too. Observe them: “tiredness,” “hot,” “pain,” and so on. Thoughts and ideas may also occur. Note them as “thinking,” “imagining,” “pleasure,” “delight,” etc., as they arise. For the beginner in meditation to observe everything that enters the six sense doors is hard. So one should begin by noting only a few things.
Patrick Kearney's retreat talks are very good for putting the ideas in perspective. He comments that some people find labelling useful, and some find it annoying and drop it almost immediately.
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As are U Vivekananda's talks:
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/186/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Remember that, in common with instructions from any teacher, the details of this particular approach simply may not fit a particular person (or a particular time) well. Such technique details are not the point of meditation, they are, in my view, potentially helpful hints.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Mental Noting

Post by ancientbuddhism »

U Pandita explained in retreat that the noting technique was simply to develop the awareness to ‘fall upon’ whatever arises and whatever one does, so that sati is always present.
Although the Mahasi method may seem pragmatic about mental noting, I found that in their retreat training they are not as rigid as all that, and would advise that as awareness becomes steady with the changefulness of objects or conditions, that noting will naturally give-way to just awareness of these (or ‘pure awaring’ as U Pandita’s translator put it). This makes sense for me because I feel that when a mental tag is applied to the awareness of conditions as they arise, their full knowledge cannot be gained.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by meindzai »

In full awareness and appreciation of what has already been said here, I'd still appreciate if somebody can answer my initial question which is to find a list of usable labels outside the Sayadaw model.

-M
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Mental Noting

Post by Kenshou »

Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
User avatar
ancientbuddhism
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Location: Cyberia

Re: Mental Noting

Post by ancientbuddhism »

meindzai wrote:In full awareness and appreciation of what has already been said here, I'd still appreciate if somebody can answer my initial question which is to find a list of usable labels outside the Sayadaw model.

-M
You have already mentioned that you have exhausted the Mahasi boilerplate found in books and found yourself only obsessing over how it is applied. The main point that I have taken from this system is to train awareness to be present with what is arising – changing – falling. The satipaṭṭhāna refers to direct knowledge (pajānāti) of these conditions, so consider the Mahasi method as a tool box method to develop this. As I mentioned earlier, this method is not taught in retreat as rigidly as the books imply. One can use softer (non verbal) tags to conditions, rather than the suggested ‘rising, falling, sitting, touching’ etc.

Eventually you will find a method that fits. Whatever method you find useful, remember that it is just a tool to train awareness to be present. As you stay with that method you will notice that the noting method is a little chaotic, when this happens just let the noting fade and stay in awareness of the conditions.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves
meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by meindzai »

Kenshou wrote:Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
I thought there was something out there loosely based around the four foundations of mindfulness. Maybe 2 or three labels for each. I first learned this through Gil Fronsdal's online teachings. I might just have to go through those again.

-M
meindzai
Posts: 595
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:10 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by meindzai »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
meindzai wrote:In full awareness and appreciation of what has already been said here, I'd still appreciate if somebody can answer my initial question which is to find a list of usable labels outside the Sayadaw model.

-M
You have already mentioned that you have exhausted the Mahasi boilerplate found in books and found yourself only obsessing over how it is applied. The main point that I have taken from this system is to train awareness to be present with what is arising – changing – falling. The satipaṭṭhāna refers to direct knowledge (pajānāti) of these conditions, so consider the Mahasi method as a tool box method to develop this. As I mentioned earlier, this method is not taught in retreat as rigidly as the books imply. One can use softer (non verbal) tags to conditions, rather than the suggested ‘rising, falling, sitting, touching’ etc.

Eventually you will find a method that fits. Whatever method you find useful, remember that it is just a tool to train awareness to be present. As you stay with that method you will notice that the noting method is a little chaotic, when this happens just let the noting fade and stay in awareness of the conditions.
Yeah, and that is the goal for me. I sometimes pick up tools to use in meditation when things are going stagnant or when I'm getting lazy or too mechanical. For example I sometimes go back to counting inhalations and exhalations when I am too scattered to merely focus on the breath. Then I put it back down again. Occasionally I try some sort of vipassana-based technique when my awareness becomes too narrow, which is what is happening now. I just want to sharpen the saw a bit.

-M
Jack
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:54 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by Jack »

meindzai wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
I thought there was something out there loosely based around the four foundations of mindfulness. Maybe 2 or three labels for each. I first learned this through Gil Fronsdal's online teachings. I might just have to go through those again.

-M
====================
I posted something about noting using the 4 foundations of mindfulness. See http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7905" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jack
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

It is normal, when newly acquiring any skill, that there seems to be too much to remember. When learning to drive, it is at first overwhelming trying to remember all of the instructions to control the clutch and accelerator when changing gear, checking the mirror, using the indicator, etc., before moving away from a stand still. Most new drivers stall the engine regularly.

When learning to meditate, one should begin by noting only a few basic objects: the rising and falling movements of the abdomen, the sitting posture, and whatever points of touch are predominant. Soon, one is ready to note hearing, thinking, and so on.

If, at any point, one becomes restless or doubtful, then one should note the restlessness or doubt in accordance with the method in the section on contemplating the five hindrances.To paraphrase the relevant section:
When restlessness is present, the meditator knows, "Restlessness is present in me." ... when doubt is present, the meditator knows, "Doubt is present in me."
Success in meditation requires persistence and continuity. Gradually, the mental restlessness will disappear, and the meditation objects will become clear. The mental noting and labelling is an aid to mindfulness, as a magnifying glass is an aid to reading small print. Don't focus on the magnifying glass — focus on the print. Don't obsess about the labels, focus on the objects that are arising and disappearing in the present moment, and which should be known as they occur.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
buddhajunkie
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:15 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by buddhajunkie »

Keep it simple! I agree with Jack's use of the Four Foundations, however, I prefer to keep it very, very simple (at least for now). Get more nuanced later if you want.

Right now, I basically pay attention to

Body: "tightness/tension", "excited heart", "butterflies"
Feelings: "pleasant," "unpleasant," "neither"
Mind States: "desire," "aversion," "obsession"

I tend to "verbalize" some things more than other. The important thing is recognition, whether you do it with a note or not.

Also, remember that your mental noting should have a volume control. Dial it down.
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

buddhajunkie wrote:Right now, I basically pay attention to

Body: "tightness/tension", "excited heart", "butterflies"
Feelings: "pleasant," "unpleasant," "neither"
Mind States: "desire," "aversion," "obsession"
I've find the four frames very useful both on and off the cushion. I've also worked with the 5 hindrances.

Spiny
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Mental Noting

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Kenshou wrote:Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
The problem I have with using the aggregates as labels is getting involved in the technicalities, eg does memory come under perception? :juggling: :D

Spiny
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Mental Noting

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Is 6 too many? There's always the 5 aggregates, or you could really simplify it and go to nama-rupa, 2 categories.
The problem I have with using the aggregates as labels is getting involved in the technicalities, eg does memory come under perception? :juggling: :D

Spiny
The six sense bases mode is fantastic here.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Post Reply