Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Tilt Wrote :
To try and explain the taste of chocolate correctly in words is like putiing a striaght stick halfway in water and expecting it to remain staright visually, which it cannot, it bends (visually).
No one here is mistaking the discriptions of nibbana given by the for as being the actual experience.
Dont think this is the case from discussions above but thanks for supporting what I state, since even when some experience which is well within the sensory field (chocolate taste) cant be defined by words then what to say of something which is outside the sensory field itself (and by those who havent probably experienced it).

But ok as long as people are clear that only aspects nibbana are being referred to and not the experience itself and even the words defining them may not be fully correct, I am alright with whatever is left of it.

Metta

Parth
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Kenshou,

Leave the 'ism' follow the practise.

Metta

Parth
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

That comment doesn't address the subject at hand at all.
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

To continue the chocolate metaphor:

It's true the words cannot perfectly capture and communicate the taste of chocolate to another person. They can also not perfectly capture and communicate the experience of nibbana. Or any other experience, because language is imperfect.

But words can still communicate and describe the taste of chocolate. Not perfectly, but they can do it. Words can also communicate and describe nibbana. Not perfectly, but that doesn't make those words wrong.

In fact those words can be quite useful to us, and should not be ignored. An imperfect description is not a useless description, that is my point. If it were true that all explanations of nibbana are wrong, the suttas would be a whole lot shorter.
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Considering the cessation of experience, as nibbana, here's a list of quotes:

"'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Yours alone is the eye, Evil One. Yours are forms, yours is the sphere of consciousness of contact at the eye. Where no eye exists, no forms exist, no sphere of consciousness & contact at the eye exists: there, Evil One, you cannot go. Yours alone is the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... Yours alone is the intellect, Evil One. Yours are ideas, yours is the sphere of consciousness & contact at the intellect. Where no intellect exists, no ideas exist, no sphere of consciousness of contact at the intellect exists: there, Evil One, you cannot go."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#nibbana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 8.1

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3

There's no fire like passion,
no loss like anger,
no pain like the aggregates,
no ease other than peace.

Hunger: the foremost illness.
Fabrications: the foremost pain.
For one knowing this truth
as it actually is,
Unbinding
is the foremost ease.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-202" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
— Ud 1.10

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... bbana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now this idea that nibbana entails the cessation of experience is Buddhism 101. Every secondary school child in Sri Lanka knows this. It is a shame that the members on this forum are still struggling with it. In any case, let me offer a sutta which might offer some relief to those who are constipated by the aggregates and cant seem to let go...

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he (the steam entrant) has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bits in red are the elements pertaining to the removal of defilements. The bits in green are the elements pertaining to the cessation of experience. Now the only way to reconcile these two strands of quotes from the suttas is to put them together, as seems to have happened in the paticca-nirodha sequence above. Then we can understand this in the following manner: through the removal of defilements, especially avijja, through breaking of the fetters, we come to attainment/vimutti -and the experience of that is complete cessation- a non-experience.

:anjali:

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
beeblebrox
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by beeblebrox »

parth wrote:
To try and explain the taste of chocolate correctly in words is like putiing a striaght stick halfway in water and expecting it to remain staright visually, which it cannot, it bends (visually).
No one here is mistaking the discriptions of nibbana given by the for as being the actual experience.
Dont think this is the case from discussions above but thanks for supporting what I state, since even when some experience which is well within the sensory field (chocolate taste) cant be defined by words then what to say of something which is outside the sensory field itself (and by those who havent probably experienced it).

But ok as long as people are clear that only aspects nibbana are being referred to and not the experience itself and even the words defining them may not be fully correct, I am alright with whatever is left of it.
You're right, no one can describe the "taste" of chocolate or nibbana... but this "taste" isn't the only criteria for identifying either chocolate or nibbana. If it was, then it would be impossible to identify either, or correspond to what others are experiencing.

There are sets of criteria that makes chocolate. It comes from cacao beans, which comes from a pod, taken from a specific tree, that has a specific look (there are even pictures of the tree), roasted and processed in a specific way, etc. These are definitions that are focused around "chocolate," so that no one would be mistaken if he wants to give it a "taste."

It's the same with nibbana. The Buddha developed a very specific set of definitions that is focused around nibbana (the four noble truths, the D.O., the aggregates, the three poisons, etc.), so that no one can mistake something else for nibbana, or even try to make a poor substitute for it. (Like someone did with carob beans, instead of the cacao beans.)

:anjali:
Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:Considering the cessation of experience, as nibbana, here's a list of quotes
Sorry, but none of those citations support your premise. More to the point, the issue at hand is the criteria for correctly discerning attainment of the noble path. And the only criteria for this discernment is the termination of the first three fetters. There is a spectrum of meditative states which may help one attain the noble path, but none of these experiences are nibbāna. Nibbāna is the termination of specific fetters according to each noble path and fruition. “Pitch-black emptiness” isn’t nibbāna. A “luminous mind” isn’t nibbāna either.
rowyourboat wrote:Now this idea that nibbana entails the cessation of experience is Buddhism 101. Every secondary school child in Sri Lanka knows this. It is a shame that the members on this forum are still struggling with it. In any case, let me offer a sutta which might offer some relief to those who are constipated by the aggregates and cant seem to let go...
Better to not rely on secondary school children for one’s development of discernment. The noble eightfold path has a clearly defined and very specific final goal (pariyosāna), a precise destination (parāyana). This goal is the elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, and the elimination of delusion. The realization of this goal is variously called the “gnosis and vision of liberation” (vimuttiñāṇadassana), the “gnosis of elimination” (khayeñāṇa), the “gnosis of nibbāna” (nibbāna ñāṇa), and so on.

The Asaṅkhata Saṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya offers thirty-three epithets for this goal, almost all of which are either metaphors or evocative terms suggestive of the various facets of this goal. But each of these epithets is then explicitly and unequivocally defined as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. One of these epithets is nibbāna, which is a term relating to an extended metaphor. Ven. Ñāṇamoli, The Path of Purification, p. 790, note 72:
  • Modern etymology derives the word nibbāna (Skr. nirvāṇa) from the negative prefix nir plus the root vā (to blow). The original literal meaning was probably ‘extinction’ of a fire by ceasing to blow on it with bellows (a smith’s fire for example). It seems to have been extended to extinction of fire by any means, for example, the going out of a lamp’s flame (nibbāyati — M iii 245).
Soonil Hwang, Metaphor and Literalism in Buddhism: The Doctrinal History of Nirvana, p. 9:
  • Western scholars tend to agree on the etymological meaning of nirvāṇa as ‘going out’: the noun nirvāṇa is derived from the negative prefix nir plus the root vā (to blow). Its original meaning seems to be, as Ñāṇamoli suggested, ‘“extinction” of a fire by ceasing to blow on it with bellows (a smith’s fire, for example).’ When a smith stops blowing on a fire, it goes out automatically. In this respect, this word nirvāṇa should be understood as intransitive: a fire going out due to lack of cause, such as fuel or wind.

    If we accept this etymological meaning, which is probably pre-Buddhist, what does the term refer to within the early Buddhist tradition? One of the common misunderstandings of nirvāṇa is to assume that it refers to the extinction of a person or soul. This view may be caused by the words nibbuta and nibbuti, which can be used of the person or soul. However, both words are derived not from nir√vā (to blow) but from nir√vṛ (to cover) and their meaning in these cases is, as K. R. Norman suggests, ‘satisfied, happy, tranquil, at ease, at rest’ for the former and ‘happiness, bliss, rest, ceasing’ for the latter. Moreover, not only does this view lack any textual evidence, it is also the mistaken opinion identified in the early canon as annihilationism (ucchedavāda).
The canon repeatedly, explicitly, and unequivocally defines nibbāna as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. This is the goal of practice. Beyond the attainment of this goal, early Pāḷi Buddhism has nothing to say. SN 48.42 Uṇṇābhabrāhmaṇa Sutta:
  • “But master Gotama, what is it that nibbāna takes recourse in?”

    “You have gone beyond the range of questioning, brāhmaṇa. You were unable to grasp the limit of questioning. For, brāhmaṇa, the holy life is lived with nibbāna as its ground, nibbāna as its destination, nibbāna as its final goal.”
There are two reasons why the Buddha had nothing to say about any matters beyond the attainment of this goal. The first is that any view regarding the postmortem existence or non-existence of an awakened arahant is not conducive to actually attaining the goal. It “does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.” It is considered a fetter of view (diṭṭhisaṃyojana). MN 72 Aggivacchagotta Sutta:
  • The view that after death a tathāgata exists is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata both exists and does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.

    The view that after death a tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a vacillation of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by dissatisfaction, distress, despair, and fever. It does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calmness, direct gnosis, full awakening, nibbāna.
The other reason, as suggested by the Buddha’s exchange with the brāhmaṇa Uṇṇābha already mentioned, is that there is no way to describe or designate or define anything beyond the attainment of this goal.

The most elegant and subtle aspect of the dhamma expounded in the Nikāyas is that it doesn’t impose any sort of metaphysical view regarding the nature of the liberated mind. This is clear in the sense of the liberated, measureless mind → appamāṇacetasa, being free from any sort of measuring → pamāṇa.

It is precisely this which differentiates early Buddhism from every other religious and secular worldview, and also separates early Buddhism from virtually every later strata of Buddhist exegesis — both ancient and modern. It’s unfortunate that most authors of Buddhist commentary haven’t seen fit to heed the Buddha’s advice on this point.

The two trends of Buddhist exegetical interpretation both fail to appreciate this point, and fall into either a uniquely Buddhist version of nihilism or a uniquely Buddhist version of eternalism. These post-canonical views are uniquely Buddhist because, for the most part, they manage to avoid the annihilationist and eternalist views criticized by the Buddha in the discourses.

The nihilist version of Buddhist exegetical interpretation errs through mistaken reductionism. This thesis posits that an arahant is nothing more than the aggregates, and therefore, because the aggregates cease without remainder at the time of the arahant’s death, the “arahant” is likewise terminated. This reductionism errs because there are explicit statements in the discourses which tell us that an arahant cannot be measured even while alive, and specifically, cannot be measured using the criteria of the aggregates. Since this is the case, there is nothing whatsoever that can be posited about the postmortem existence or non-existence of the arahant. Language and logical inference don’t apply to that which cannot be qualified or measured. There is no criteria for measurement.

The eternalist versions of Buddhist exegetical interpretation (there is more than one), all err for the same reason. Since an arahant cannot be measured or traced even while alive, there is nothing whatsoever that can be posited about the postmortem existence or non-existence of the arahant. Again, language and logical inference don’t apply to that which cannot be qualified or measured. There’s no criteria for measurement.
rowyourboat wrote:Then we can understand this in the following manner: through the removal of defilements, especially avijja, through breaking of the fetters, we come to attainment/vimutti -and the experience of that is complete cessation- a non-experience.
Here is how the path is developed according to the canon: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

No need for “pitch-black emptiness.” No need for “non-experience.” And certainly no cause for thinking that “pitch-black emptiness” is the goal of the noble path. Your nihilistic view is no more sustainable than the eternalistic view held by the “nibbāna is the luminous mind” people, or the “nibbāna is a truly existing transcendental realm” people.

All the best,

Geoff
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Beeblebrox wrote:
You're right, no one can describe the "taste" of chocolate or nibbana... but this "taste" isn't the only criteria for identifying either chocolate or nibbana. If it was, then it would be impossible to identify either, or correspond to what others are experiencing.

There are sets of criteria that makes chocolate. It comes from cacao beans, which comes from a pod, taken from a specific tree, that has a specific look (there are even pictures of the tree), roasted and processed in a specific way, etc. These are definitions that are focused around "chocolate," so that no one would be mistaken if he wants to give it a "taste."

It's the same with nibbana. The Buddha developed a very specific set of definitions that is focused around nibbana (the four noble truths, the D.O., the aggregates, the three poisons, etc.), so that no one can mistake something else for nibbana, or even try to make a poor substitute for it. (Like someone did with carob beans, instead of the cacao beans.)
Point taken and appreciated, nobody should be made to believe that the act of halucination with drugs can take you there or likes. But as you said these definitions are focussed around nibbana not the experience itself. This is correct.

:thumbsup:

Metta

Parth
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Kenshou,
"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Nibbana Sutta— Ud 8.1
This is nothing but 'neti neti' - not this not this. This is all what can be said of the actual experience. Hopefully as per you the above is not useless crud. A suggestion, please do not look at dhamma from a 'ism' perspective which actually is the biggest insult to "Dhamma" and good things should be accepted / inculcated wherever they are found. Buddha taught "Dhamma" which was and is a universal phenomenon and people converted it into an 'ism' what a tragedy.

Metta

Parth
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

parth wrote:This is nothing but 'neti neti' - not this not this. This is all what can be said of the actual experience.
No, not really. Only if you ignore many other passages.

Also I suspect that this passage refers to the final parinibbana. Which I would agree is, for all intents and purposes, cessation. But it's pretty easy to find explanations of the living experience of awakening which don't include any such thing. And the living individual's awakening was the topic here, or so I have been thinking.
please do not look at dhamma from a 'ism' perspective
I'm not. It's just a word, no reason to be afraid of it. And this is an irrelevant issue that you keep bringing up for no good reason.
which actually is the biggest insult to "Dhamma" and good things should be accepted / inculcated wherever they are found
It's a bigger insult to pour unnecessary muck into it. But the line between useful and unnecessary varies from person to person, I realize.
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Kenshou wrote :
parth wrote:
This is nothing but 'neti neti' - not this not this. This is all what can be said of the actual experience.
No, not really. Only if you ignore many other passages. Also I suspect that this passage refers to the final parinibbana. Which I would agree is, for all intents and purposes, cessation. But it's pretty easy to find explanations of the living experience of awakening which don't include any such thing. And the living individual's awakening was the topic here, or so I have been thinking.
Am not talking about other passages, am presently talking about the above passage (stated by Buddha) which is 'neti-neti' and is certainly not useless / curd. Which is why I stated that one should not be bound by 'isms' and should be open to good wherever it is found. It is relevant here because probably you reacted to word "neti-neti" in the above manner because it was not part of and therefore not relevant to "Buddhist" thought / practise even though there was no contradiction.

Most of the other referred passages are actually around nibbana and do not, repeat do not explain and cannot explain the actual experience which by words written / spoken cannot be correctly explained.

Metta

Parth
Last edited by Parth on Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

Most of the other referred passages are actually around nibbana and do not, repeat do not explain and cannot explain the actual experience which by words written / spoken cannot be correctly explained.
Yeah they do, and yes they can. But we're obviously just going to continue to disagree, so I'd be happy finish the discussion here.
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Tilt,

You Wrote :
No one here is mistaking the discriptions of nibbana given by the for as being the actual experience.
I wrote:
Most of the other referred passages are actually around nibbana and do not, repeat do not explain and cannot explain the actual experience which by words written / spoken cannot be correctly explained.


Kenshou Wrote:
Yeah they do, and yes they can.
See the confusion !

Metta

Parth
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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by kirk5a »

parth wrote: the actual experience
Which is described as such:
They may just be theoretical constructs to explain the sudden manifestation of the next stage, knowledge of path and result (maggaphala-nana). In practice, what happens is that the meditator is practicing, every aspect of his meditation is subtle, clear and bright, and then suddenly there is a sense of falling-into (knowledge of insight leading to emergence) and then the lights go out. There is a momentary sense of nothingness, and then the lights come on. If the meditator checks the watch, he realises some time has passed - depending on the strength of his concentration, this could be anything from a few minutes to a few days and he has "awoken" suddenly into a situation in which the practice is continuing, but the experience is much less subtle than before. The meditator is now in the knowledge of arising and passing away (udayabbaya-nana).

16) Knowledge of review - paccavekkhana-nana

What happened? Has he fallen asleep? No, because of the suddenness and clarity of the beginning and end of the experience of unconsciousness, and because there has been absolutely no physical movement. What the meditator has experienced is the total cessation of the mind-body process.
http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The experience of unconsciousness" is far more easily induced by anesthesia, first of all. But that aside, I would ask those advocating this "event" as constituting "the actual experience of nibbana" as to what the value is in this. So there's a momentary, impermanent, "non-experience." How has one's mind changed for the better through this event?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for your reply. As far as I am concerned, my input into this thread has cone to an end.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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