Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote: Based on what the AN 9s have to say in its listing of Nibbana-Here-&-Now variants, it seems pretty clear that when an Arahant soaks in a Jhana or Nirodha Sammapatti, he/she is personally experiencing Nibbana. This leads me to think that outside of these 9 specifically named experiences, it is not Nibbana.
And this raises an interesting question. Is nibbana a meditative experience or set of meditative experiences, or are there meditative experiences that might be associated with the attainment of nibbana, but nibbana itself is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion, and the arahant as she moves through the world no longer perceives in terms of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Sylvester »

Ñāṇa wrote:And thirdly, consciousness which is unestablished (appatiṭṭha viññāṇa). SN 22.53 Upaya Sutta:
  • When that consciousness is unestablished, not increasing, not concocting, it is liberated. Being liberated, it is steady. Being steady, it is content. Being content, he is not excited. Unexcited, he personally attains complete nibbāna. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’
As for the qualm that this last passage refers to the death of an arahant, the phrase: "Unexcited, he personally attains complete nibbāna. He discerns that, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here,'" is the standard paricope referring to the time of awakening, i.e. a statement of the attainment of arahant fruition (e.g. DN 15, MN 105, etc.), and not the time of death of an arahant.
Oh Geoff, where does SN 22.53 refer to "appatiṭṭha viññāṇa"?

If you select one little passage from SN 22.53, it does nothing but to obfuscate the context. How about the preceding passage to give this fulsome context -
Rūpadhātuyā ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno rāgo pahīno hoti. Rāgassa pahānā vocchijjatārammaṇaṃ patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti. Vedanādhātuyā ce, bhikkhave… saññādhātuyā ce, bhikkhave… saṅkhāradhātuyā ce, bhikkhave… viññāṇadhātuyā ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno rāgo pahīno hoti. Rāgassa pahānā vocchijjatārammaṇaṃ patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa na hoti. Tadappatiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ avirūḷhaṃ anabhisaṅkhacca vimuttaṃ. Vimuttattā ṭhitaṃ. Ṭhitattā santusitaṃ. Santusitattā na paritassati. Aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati. ‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī”ti.

Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust, the basis is cut off : there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element ... for the perception element ... for the volitional fomations element ... for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust, the basis is cut off : there is no support for the establishing of consciousness.

When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands .....
Again, the simple verb context of whether consciousness is established or not becomes mysteriously reified into an "unestablished consciousness".

Take a look at SN 12.39 -
Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards : this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. Where there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is descent of name and form ... (continue per the rest of DO sequence)
.....

But, bhikkhus, when one does not intend, and one does not plan, and one does not have a tendency towards anything, no basis exists for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is no basis, there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is unestablished and does not come to growth, there is no descent of name and form... (continue per the rest of DO sequence)
I'm still waiting to see some convincing evidence of this unicorn called the "unestablished consciousness", when all I can see are suttas simply referring to "consciousness not being established" as being nothing more than the condition for the cessation of the descent of name and form. Classical DO - why improve on it by introducing this unicorn?
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote: Based on what the AN 9s have to say in its listing of Nibbana-Here-&-Now variants, it seems pretty clear that when an Arahant soaks in a Jhana or Nirodha Sammapatti, he/she is personally experiencing Nibbana. This leads me to think that outside of these 9 specifically named experiences, it is not Nibbana.
And this raises an interesting question. Is nibbana a meditative experience or set of meditative experiences, or are there meditative experiences that might be associated with the attainment of nibbana, but nibbana itself is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion, and the arahant as she moves through the world no longer perceives in terms of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Hi tilt.

I hesitate to answer definitely.

I would certainly agree with your statement that the kammas and mula-kammas of greed, hatred and delusion are extinguished in an Arahant. BUT, a putthujana practising sila could possibly suppress greed and hatred temporarily and a well-instructed putthujana could possibly recollect on DO and thereby suppress illusions about his khandhas at that time (per MN 152). In these cases, something is shared with the Arahant's no-greed, no-hatred and no-delusion. Yet, I've not seen these putthujana experiences being described as Nibbanic.

If one goes even deeper than the above 3 mula-kamma, we come to the Anusayas. It is clear that in the Arahants, the Anusayas are also totally gone. But MN 44 does suggest that the pleasures of 1st Jhana cannot trigger raga and raganusaya, which makes AN 9s' characterisation of 1st Jhana as "Nibbana-Here-&-Now-With-a-Sequel" understandable. Likewise for the equanimity of 4th Jhana not triggering avijjanusaya. So, Nibbanic experiences are somewhat accessible to putthujanas, unless one argues that the putthujanas' Jhanas are not in the same class as MN 117's Jhanas, or reject altogether the Commentarial notion that putthujanas can attain Jhanas and restrict Jhanas only to the "8 Pairs".

I wish I have something to say about the Asavas, but that's all I can muster.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:Oh Geoff
I have no time for you bud. Is that not clear? I have zero interest in discussing anything else with you. Your views on virtually every subject are so far out there that they don't even remotely resemble the Buddhadhamma. To point out and clarify each of your interpretive errors in this thread alone would take far more time and effort than I'm willing to invest. You're entirely free to invent your own religion and call it whatever you like, but I'm not interested.

There's a reason why I don't visit Sujato's blog or Brahmavamso's forum or Daniel Ingram's forum: I have no interest in what these people are presenting as "dhamma."
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Sylvester »

Ñāṇa wrote:I have no time for you bud.

No time?

Or is it not really the case of this -
Tatiye ca bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā kimāgamma kimārabbha amarāvikkhepikā tattha tattha pañhaṃ puṭṭhā samānā vācāvikkhepaṃ āpajjanti amarāvikkhepaṃ? Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ‘idaṃ kusalan’ti yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti, ‘idaṃ akusalan’ti yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāti. Tassa evaṃ hoti— ‘ahaṃ kho “idaṃ kusalan”ti yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāmi, “idaṃ akusalan”ti yathābhūtaṃ nappajānāmi. Ahañce kho pana “idaṃ kusalan”ti yathābhūtaṃ appajānanto “idaṃ akusalan”ti yathābhūtaṃ appajānanto “idaṃ kusalan”ti vā byākareyyaṃ, “idaṃ akusalan”ti vā byākareyyaṃ; santi hi kho samaṇabrāhmaṇā paṇḍitā nipuṇā kataparappavādā vālavedhirūpā, te bhindantā maññe caranti paññāgatena diṭṭhigatāni, te maṃ tattha samanuyuñjeyyuṃ samanugāheyyuṃ samanubhāseyyuṃ. Ye maṃ tattha samanuyuñjeyyuṃ samanugāheyyuṃ samanubhāseyyuṃ, tesāhaṃ na sampāyeyyaṃ. Yesāhaṃ na sampāyeyyaṃ, so mamassa vighāto. Yo mamassa vighāto, so mamassa antarāyo’ti. Iti so anuyogabhayā anuyogaparijegucchā nevidaṃ kusalanti byākaroti, na panidaṃ akusalanti byākaroti, tattha tattha pañhaṃ puṭṭho samāno vācāvikkhepaṃ āpajjati amarāvikkhepaṃ— ‘evantipi me no; tathātipi me no; aññathātipi me no; notipi me no; no notipi me no’ti. Idaṃ, bhikkhave, tatiyaṃ ṭhānaṃ, yaṃ āgamma yaṃ ārabbha eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā amarāvikkhepikā tattha tattha pañhaṃ puṭṭhā samānā vācāvikkhepaṃ āpajjanti amarāvikkhepaṃ.
You certainly had loads of time to assail me with your PM yesterday...
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:You certainly had loads of time to assail me with your PM yesterday...
A PM which was an exact copy of this post, with the reason for sending it: in case the post was deleted by the mods due to my choice of language.

At any rate, you may be a fine lawyer but the dhamma isn't an adversarial system. I'm not interested in your version of sutta interpretation, just as I'm not interested in Sujato's version or Brahmavamso's version or Daniel Ingram's version. It's nothing personal, I'm simply not interested.

:smile:

Be well.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Ben »

In the words of Woody (Toy Story), please remember to play nice!
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by beeblebrox »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings beeblebrox,
beeblebrox wrote:The consciousness continues to persist because of the specific sankharas that gave rise to it, were already arisen. One can't time-travel to the past to undo these... but he can see them for what they are, disidentify with them, and then let them go to their complete end at parinibbana.

I'm not sure if this was just a bit of loose language or not, but be careful not to slip into the fallacy of Sati the Fisherman's Son.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, that wasn't my intention... just that once the consciousness is arisen (or khandhas), it'll to go to end in due time, after the cessation of the sankharas which gave rise to it, not due to some unrelated, new sankharas in the future ceasing, or being abandoned. I'm not sure if this is a correct way of viewing the D.O. (and what Sylvester meant), but seems to make sense to me, sorta.

:anjali:
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

tiltbillings wrote:Is nibbana a meditative experience or set of meditative experiences
Of course not.
tiltbillings wrote:or are there meditative experiences that might be associated with the attainment of nibbana, but nibbana itself is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion, and the arahant as she moves through the world no longer perceives in terms of greed, hatred, and delusion.
Yes.

All the best,

Geoff
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

beeblebrox wrote:Yes, that wasn't my intention... just that once the consciousness is arisen (or khandhas), it'll to go to end in due time, after the cessation of the sankharas which gave rise to it, not due to some unrelated, new sankharas in the future ceasing, or being abandoned.
SN 12.61 Assutavantu Sutta: "But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another."

When the underlying tendencies and outflows have been eliminated upon awakening there is gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa). After this there are no underlying tendencies associated with an arahant's mind-stream.

All the best,

Geoff
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

Picking up something from the that warrants another pass:
retrofuturist wrote: For you to claim that idappaccayata was taught as a general principle, beyond that of dependent origination, you'll need to provide at least one example of it in the suttas that differs from dependent origination. Otherwise, you're merely kidding yourself that such an application of it is relevant to the Dhamma (given the criteria of the Simsapa Sutta).
No kidding myself. My point has to do with Right View. It is not a matter of being "beyond" paticcasamuppada. It is the principle that underlies it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

To be clear, you said this... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p125868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
later followed by...
tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.
Since all (non-cessation) depictions of paticcasamuppada in the suttas are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the emphasis is surely upon you to find an example of idappaccayata which isn't, if you are to substantiate your view that there is some form of paticcasamuppada "not... conditioned by ignorance".

Otherwise your statement is an oxymoron.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

To be clear, you said this... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p125868" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
later followed by...
tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.
Since all (non-cessation) depictions of paticcasamuppada in the suttas are dependent upon avijja and sankharas, the emphasis is surely upon you to find an example of idappaccayata which isn't, if you are to substantiate your view that there is some form of paticcasamuppada "not... conditioned by ignorance".

Otherwise your statement is an oxymoron.

Metta,
Retro. :)
The underlying structure of the Buddha's teachings is "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises. This not becoming, that does not become; from the ceasing of this, that ceases.
" [MN II 32]
"The Perfect One has told the cause of causally arisen things; and what brings their cessation, too."[Vin. Mv Kh1]

The basic formula is: "And what is X, what is the origin of X, what is the cessation of X, what is the way leading to the cessation of X?", and it applicable to each aspect of the 12 link formula.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,

Yes - no arguments there...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by rowyourboat »

Probably not adding much to this amazing discussion - my take on the matter is that when avijja samyojana is finally shattered by the arahanth, the 'process' which took up the path to enlightenment ceases to be. The unconditioned comes to manifest and all the aggregates cease. What starts up again is the remaining body, formed of 'old kamma'- a previous throw of the paticcasamuppada which has been crystallised as the ayatana, just continuing until the 'fuel' runs out. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Post Reply