Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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mikenz66
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Sorry. I've attempted many, many, times to explain how you engage in what seems to me be to be a kind of negative ontology.
If it's any help, try regarding my statements as ontologically neutral, rather than ontologically negative.
Of course, just as soon as you stop labelling other view as "ontological", "realist", etc. ... :tongue:

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:And, of course without litigating this all over again, this hinges on what is actually meant in the real world by "cessation," given that between the cessation of ignorance and the supposed cessation of vipaka are such things as the cessation contact, feeling, apperception and consciousness, which would make for an interesting "living" arahant, not having any of these functions actually functioning. The arahant as zombie.
Again, not what I'm suggesting.

I'm not attempting to measure the arahant in any way, and I suppose my unwillingness to speculative in positive terms on the experience of an arahant would make it difficult to understand my position if you are expecting to find within it declarations on whether certain things "exist" for the arahant.
What wise man here would seek to define
A measureless one by taking his measure?
He who would measure a measureless one
Must be, I think, an obstructed worldling.
Been there, done that. It is not a matter of measuring the arahant, and "exists" is a non-starter, as has been pointed out.
I am interested though, in light of what you've said in recent posts, to hear how you think dependent origination in its cessation mode would function in practice. For you, what constitutes cessation of nama-rupa and salayatana? Is it something that requires "death" for it to occur?
Since the living arahant's khandhas still function and the arahant is no longer measured in those terms, what stops is the grasping after the khandhas, the pushing away of the khandhas, and the misaphrehension of the khandhas in terms of being and non-being. It is the khandhas identified in terms of being/non-being, of grasping after which has ceased. Just as khandhas are a way of talking about the flow experience, cessation is also a way of talking about the flow of experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Of course, just as soon as you stop labelling other view as "ontological", "realist", etc. ... :tongue:
To be clear, if I label other views thusly, it's because that's what I perceive them to be... it's not a case of using these terms as "put downs".

I'm not intending to associate any value judgement to them, merely openly establishing the reasons either why I disagree, or neither-agree-nor-disagree with any given assertion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I am interested though, in light of what you've said in recent posts, to hear how you think dependent origination in its cessation mode would function in practice. For you, what constitutes cessation of nama-rupa and salayatana? Is it something that requires "death" for it to occur?
Since the living arahant's khandhas still function and the arahant is no longer measured in those terms, what stops is the grasping after the khandhas, the pushing away of the khandhas, and the misaphrehension of the khandhas in terms of being and non-being. It is the khandhas identified in terms of being/non-being, of grasping after which has ceased. Just as khandhas are a way of talking about the flow experience, cessation is also a way of talking about the flow of experience.
That would account adequately for everything from the cessation of tanha onwards, but what about the cessation mode up to that point... what does that mean to you?

And if cessation of tanha occurs, surely this is dependent upon the cessation of the earlier nidanas (i.e. sankhara, vinnana, nama-rupa, salayatana, phassa, vedana). To wit, what does the cessation of the pre-tanha nidanas mean to you? What is "going on" there?

Asking this about the arahant might "seem" theoretical and irrelevant, but I maintain it is relevant, because whatever is ceasing or ceased for the arahant is precisely what is arising for us.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist wrote:If it's any help, try regarding my statements as ontologically neutral, rather than ontologically negative.
mikenz66 wrote:Of course, just as soon as you stop labelling other view as "ontological", "realist", etc. ... :tongue:
retrofuturist wrote: To be clear, if I label other views thusly, it's because that's what I perceive them to be... it's not a case of using these terms as "put downs".

I'm not intending to associate any value judgement to them, merely openly establishing the reasons either why I disagree, or neither-agree-nor-disagree with any given assertion.
That's fine. But, as I've said repeatedly, from my perspective much of your labelling is actually mislabelling, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

Clearly I've not explained that convincingly enough, but I'm unlikely to find any new ways of saying it...

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I am interested though, in light of what you've said in recent posts, to hear how you think dependent origination in its cessation mode would function in practice. For you, what constitutes cessation of nama-rupa and salayatana? Is it something that requires "death" for it to occur?
Since the living arahant's khandhas still function and the arahant is no longer measured in those terms, what stops is the grasping after the khandhas, the pushing away of the khandhas, and the misaphrehension of the khandhas in terms of being and non-being. It is the khandhas identified in terms of being/non-being, of grasping after which has ceased. Just as khandhas are a way of talking about the flow experience, cessation is also a way of talking about the flow of experience.
That would account adequately for everything from the cessation of tanha onwards, but what about the cessation mode up to that point... what does that mean to you?
1. Avijiā-paccayā sankhārā: "Through ignorance are conditioned the sankhāras," i.e. the rebirth-producing volitions (cetanā), or 'karma-formations' .
2. Sankhāra-paccayā viññānam: "Through the karma-formations (in the past life) is conditioned consciousness (in the present life)."
3. Viññāna-paccayā nāma-rūpam: "Through consciousness are conditioned the mental and physical phenomena (nāma-rūpa)," i.e. that which makes up our so-called individual existence.
4. Nāma-rūpa-paccayā salāyatanam: "Through the mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the 6 bases," i.e. the 5 physical sense-organs, and consciousness as the sixth.
5. Salāyatana-paccayā phasso: "Through the six bases is conditioned the (sensorial mental) impression."
6. Phassa-paccayā vedanā: "Through the impression is conditioned feeling."
7. Vedanā-paccayā tanhā: "Through feeling is conditioned craving."
8. Tanhā-paccayā upādānam: "Through craving is conditioned clinging."
Does consciousness cease, literally with the cessation of ignorance in the living arahant?
sankhara:
(1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M.10),
(2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking,
(3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M.44).
Do these things literally cease, no longer to function in the living arahant?

These things cease, I would say, in terms of being defining characteristics for the consciousness/awareness. As consciousness arises it no longer measures itself in those terms, being free of the limitations of having to define itself in terms of grasping after (greed), pushing away (hatred), and misapphrehension of things as they are in terms of self (delusion). While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out, there is no further kamma put together, there is no further impetus grasping after the next moment or the next life, impelling one forward.
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." SN 1.1
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:That's fine. But, as I've said repeatedly, from my perspective much of your labelling is actually mislabelling...
Maybe a statement is realist, and I perceive it as such.
Maybe a statement is realist, and I do not perceive it as such.
Maybe a statement is non-realist, and I perceive it as such.
Maybe a statement is non-realist, and I do not perceive it as such.

These are all possible.
mikenz66 wrote:...and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.
If it gives the opportunity to clarify the statement or intention, and avoid the circumstances I've coloured in red, then I think it's actually useful to the conversation, in terms of gaining a better appreciation of what the other person is meaning to say.

Again, all value-neutral.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Maybe a statement is non-realist, and I do not perceive it as such.
Yes, that's the one you need to colour red... :tongue:

Anyway, perhaps we can move on discuss Tilt's latest post, which is very much more to the point of the thread...

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
1. Avijiā-paccayā sankhārā: "Through ignorance are conditioned the sankhāras," i.e. the rebirth-producing volitions (cetanā), or 'karma-formations' .
2. Sankhāra-paccayā viññānam: "Through the karma-formations (in the past life) is conditioned consciousness (in the present life)."
3. Viññāna-paccayā nāma-rūpam: "Through consciousness are conditioned the mental and physical phenomena (nāma-rūpa)," i.e. that which makes up our so-called individual existence.
4. Nāma-rūpa-paccayā salāyatanam: "Through the mental and physical phenomena are conditioned the 6 bases," i.e. the 5 physical sense-organs, and consciousness as the sixth.
5. Salāyatana-paccayā phasso: "Through the six bases is conditioned the (sensorial mental) impression."
6. Phassa-paccayā vedanā: "Through the impression is conditioned feeling."
7. Vedanā-paccayā tanhā: "Through feeling is conditioned craving."
8. Tanhā-paccayā upādānam: "Through craving is conditioned clinging."
Hmmm... well, if I'm to take that as a direct answer to my question about what ceases for the arahant, you're saying that past-life karma formations cease (what about those of this life?). No, it seems you've just copied some text here (not even in cessation mode) rather than contemplate the question put forward.
tiltbillings wrote:Does consciousness cease, literally with the cessation of ignorance in the living arahant?
Conditioned consciousness does - beyond that, it's not for me to say.
sankhara:
(1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M.10),
(2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking,
(3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M.44).

Do these things literally cease, no longer to function in the living arahant?
Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than "function", that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...

Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (not being loka) is not dependent upon avijja.

(I have no doubt that will seem unnecessarily oblique, but it is what it is... "realism" as defined earlier included "objectively existing world... not dependent on our minds", and to me, "physiological functions" falls into that category, hence why I asked if you could reframe your question).
tiltbillings wrote:These things cease, I would say, in terms of being defining characteristics for the consciousness/awareness. As consciousness arises it no longer measures itself in those terms, being free of the limitations of having to define itself in terms of grasping after (greed), pushing away (hatred), and misapphrehension of things as they are in terms of self (delusion).
Agreed.
tiltbillings wrote:While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out
Disagree, but already done to death. I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
tiltbillings wrote:there is no further kamma put together, there is no further impetus grasping after the next moment or the next life, impelling one forward.
"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." SN 1.1
Agreed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
Hmmm... well, if I'm to take that as a direct answer to my question about what ceases for the arahant, you're saying that past-life karma formations cease (what about those of this life?). No, it seems you've just copied some text here rather than contemplate the question put forward.
Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.
tiltbillings wrote:Does consciousness cease, literally with the cessation of ignorance in the living arahant?
Conditioned consciousness does - beyond that, it's not for me to say.
Yes. Coinsciousness conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
sankhara:
(1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M.10),
(2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking,
(3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M.44).

Do these things literally cease, no longer to function in the living arahant?
Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than function, that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...
Do these things literally cease, no longer to operate in the living arahant?
Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (being outside loka) is not dependent upon avijja.
I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.
(I have no doubt that will seem unnecessarily oblique, but it is what it is... "realism" as defined earlier included "objectively existing world... not dependent on our minds", and to me, "physiological functions" falls into that category, hence why I asked if you could reframe your question).
Let me quote what I have quoted here many times already:
Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

"…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).


STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1. http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tiltbillings wrote:While the old kamma and conditioning plays itself out
Disagree, but already done to death. I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.
It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.
tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Coinsciousness conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Yes.
tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.
No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

Does the cessation of a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.
Clearly this is so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.
It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.
I thought I gave it an answer that was considered. It was just a couple a paragraphs down.
tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.
No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?
You are assuming ontology here. I am not. First of all we are stuck with figurative speech. You'll need to explain what you mean by cease. I have already explained what I mean by it, but what you mean is probably the function of what follows:
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler). Does ceasing to observe a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.
Clearly this is so.
And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?
tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
I will persist in attempting to clarify my position as long as you persist in attempting to understand it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?
To quote:
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler) . . . It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.
tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
I will persist in attempting to clarify my position and long as you persist in attempting to understand it.
But are you trying to understand my position?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.
Sankhata dhamma (i.e. any aspect of samsaric/conditioned existence), remembering that "No [dhamma] is a [dhamma], until it is an observed [dhamma]"
tiltbillings wrote:But are you trying to understand my position?
I believe I've understood your position since before we even started this topic, but I have been open throughout to advances upon it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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