Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:08 am

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates)
Seems I've heard that view before...
I am not "identifying" the arahant with the khandhas, nor am I saying the arahant is different from the khandhas, but a living arahant does talk, does hear, does remember . . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:40 am

tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies
From a suttanta perspective I don't think that we can ever equate an arahant with the aggregates. SN 22.36: Bhikkhu Sutta:
  • Venerable sir, if one has no underlying tendency towards form... feeling... recognition... fabrications... consciousness, then one is not measured (anumīyati) in accord with it. Whatever one is not measured by, that is not how one is classified (saṅkha).
An arahant is utterly free from classification/reckoning (saṅkhayavimutta) in terms of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness. The only classification schemes that I've ever seen in the suttas regarding an arahant are the six sense spheres and six faculties. And there isn't any specific correlation ever made in the suttas between the sense spheres and faculties on the one hand, and the aggregates on the other.
tiltbillings wrote:which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
Paṭiccasamuppāda has to be understood in both forward and reverse sequence. That is dhamma. The forward sequence beginning with ignorance is no longer applicable when ignorance has been eliminated.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Now you are the one reifying the arahant.
No, I'm not.
It looked like it.
tiltbillings wrote:I did not say that the arahant is dependent upon anything.
Yes you did.... you said "the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies, which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance." That's dependent... paticcasamuppada means dependent origination.
No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling. The arahant (or even the non-arahant) is not really any of these things. It is in the interdependently arising and falling that where the Dhamma seen. Who sees the Dhamma sees paticcasamuppada, who see paticassamuppada see the Dhamma. Who see the Dhamma sees the Buddha; who the Buddha sees the Dhamma.
tiltbillings wrote:Try the most basic formulat of paticcasamuppada, "This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises." It underlies everything in the Buddha's teachings.
And given the Buddha's teachings focus on the loka/sabba of conditioned existence rather than the universe, what examples could you feed through your Idappaccayata forumula that aren't dependent on avijja?
The arahant remembering in the phone number of the plumber, or seeing a bird and remebers that it is an Indigo Bunting. The arahant that has not attained parinibbana (speaking in a conventional sense) experiences and functions through the conditionality of the mind/body process, much of which is shaped by kamma, the willed choices made.
tiltbillings wrote:A text that actually, neatly makes my point.
I don't see how.
I know. I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works and where the truth and liberation are found.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:55 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But the reality is that the arahant "lives in" a mind/body (the pañca-khandha/five aggregates) until it (the body) dies
From a suttanta perspective I don't think that we can ever equate an arahant with the aggregates.
I am not, but, alas, we must use language to talk about these things, which is why with quotation marks I tried to make a point about the relationship of the arahant to the khandhas.
An arahant is utterly free from classification/reckoning (saṅkhayavimutta) in terms of form, feeling, recognition, fabrications, and consciousness. The only classification schemes that I've ever seen in the suttas regarding an arahant are the six sense spheres and six faculties. And there isn't any specific correlation ever made in the suttas between the sense spheres and faculties on the one hand, and the aggregates on the other.
But arahants walk, talk, poop, and pee. They deal with sangha politics and have distinct personalities (see Mahakassapa after the death of the Buddha) and whatever else. They do this within a framework of the conditioned mind/body of which they no longer identify, which serverd as the vehicle of liberation. Outside of not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion do the living arahants see, hear, think, remember, talk, poop, walk somehow differently?
tiltbillings wrote:which is to say that paticcasamuppada, which is Dhamma, is what functions. Just not paticcasamuppada conditioned by ignorance.
Paṭiccasamuppāda has to be understood in both forward and reverse sequence. That is dhamma. The forward sequence beginning with ignorance is no longer applicable when ignorance has been eliminated.
Sure; however, the principle of conditionality conditioned co-production is what underlies the whole of the Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:00 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling.
Only if one ignorantly reifies them as "things" (sankhata dhamma) in the first place which might, once objectified, be observed to "rise" and "fall". A moot point really, since an arahant would not falsely reify dhammas.
tiltbillings wrote:I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works
If by "world" you mean the conventional "world", then yes, that is my position. The extension of dependent origination beyond the application of conditioned experience is a Mahayana doctrine. If you reduce dependent origination to mere "cause and effect" it's hardly "Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations."
tiltbillings wrote:...and where the truth and liberation are found.
Where truth and liberation is found is in the Buddha's teachings and the Buddha never taught of a dependent origination not conditioned by ignorance.
SN 56.11 wrote:At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambii in Si.msapaa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Si.msapaa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: "What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?"

"Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little. And why, monks, have I not revealed it?

"Because, monks, it is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or Nibbaana. That is why I have not revealed it. And what, monks, have I revealed?

"What I have revealed is: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, and this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.' And why, monks, have I revealed it?

"Because this is related to the goal, fundamental to the holy life, conduces to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment and Nibbaana, therefore I have revealed it.

"Therefore, monks, your task is to learn: 'This is Suffering, this is the Arising of Suffering, this is the Cessation of Suffering, this is the Path that leads to the Cessation of Suffering.' That is your task."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:10 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:No, I did not. The arahant remembers things? The arahant speaks? The arahant walks, talks? All of these things things are interdependently arising and falling.
Only if one ignorantly reifies them as "things" (sankhata dhamma) in the first place which might, once objectified, be observed to "rise" and "fall". A moot point really, since an arahant would not falsely reify dhammas.
The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.
tiltbillings wrote:I am thinking that is because you are assuming that conditioned co-production is the ignorance formula or some such rather than an underlying principle of how the "world" works
If by "world" you mean the conventional "world", then yes, that is my position. The extension of dependent origination beyond the application of conditioned experience is a Mahayana doctrine. If you reduce dependent origination to mere "cause and effect" it's hardly "Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations."
I am always talking about the experienced world, and no, the teaching of the Buddha is not "mere cause and effect."
tiltbillings wrote:...and where the truth and liberation are found.
Where liberation is found is in the Buddha's teachings and the Buddha never taught of a dependent origination not conditioned by ignorance.
I have already shown you that he has.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:21 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.
Well given you've refused thus far to define what you mean by conditioning, I don't know what I could possibly make of that.
I am always talking about the experienced world
Yet you fathom to speak about a dependent origination other than one conditioned by ignorance?... one beyond range.
tiltbillings wrote:I have already shown you that he has.
No you've not. You've provided a definition for idappaccayata, branded it dependent origination, and then declared that dependent origination applies to everything.

For your argument to hold any water, you would want to be able to demonstrate at least one instance from the suttas where idappaccayata is used in any context other than dependent origination (or its reverse mode) founded upon ignorance. There's plenty of suttas on dependent origination - if your theory is true, it shouldn't be hard to prove.

Once you've done that you'll have shown me that the Buddha has taught such a thing - until then, you haven't.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:42 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:The point here not reifying "things"; rather, it is that the arahant is dealing kamma generated conditing.
Well given you've refused thus far to define what you mean by conditioning, I don't know what I could possibly make of that.
I have, using the basic formula given by the Buddha.

tiltbillings wrote:I have already shown you that he has.
No you've not. You've provided a definition for idappaccayata, branded it dependent origination, and then declared that dependent origination applies to everything.
And what should I make of the fact that you are unwilling to accept the fundamental statement of conditionality of the Buddha. If you want limit paticcasamuppada, then I'll go with conditionality as outlined by the Buddha. It does not matter. And what I said is that this underlies the whole of the Buddha's teaching. I do not believe I said "everything."
For your argument to hold any water, you would want to be able to demonstrate at least one instance from the suttas where idappaccayata is used in any context other than dependent origination (or its reverse mode) founded upon ignorance.

Once you've done that you'll have shown me that the Buddha has - until then you haven't.
The thing is, I already have. Also, I have shown that your attempts at dismissing vipaka for the arahant don't quite cut it, but It will be several hours befor I can get back to this in any detail.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:I tried to make a point about the relationship of the arahant to the khandhas.
Well, according to SN 22.36 there is no relationship.
tiltbillings wrote:Outside of not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion do the living arahants see, hear, think, remember, talk, poop, walk somehow differently?
They still have eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-faculties. But there is no specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence. Thus, the aggregate scheme doesn't apply. MN 140 Dhātuvibhaṅga Sutta:
  • One does not form any specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence (so neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā). Not forming any specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence, he does not cling to anything in this world. Not clinging, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he personally attains complete nibbāna. He discerns that, ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, done is what had to be done, there is nothing further here.’
tiltbillings wrote:Sure; however, the principle of conditionality conditioned co-production is what underlies the whole of the Dhamma.
Sure. But somewhere in the Aṅguttaranikāya there is a sutta which explains that with the remainderless passing away and cessation of ignorance there is no longer a fabricated body, voice, or mind conditioned by which pleasure or pain arise internally. My guess would be that this means that an arahant doesn't generate either kusala or akusala kamma -- all actions would then be kiriya.

At any rate, I haven't been paying attention to what it is that you guys are debating so I'll step aside.

All the best,

Geoff
Last edited by Nyana on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:57 am

Greetings Geoff,
Ñāṇa wrote:At any rate, I haven't been paying attention to what it is that you guys are debating so I'll step aside.
For someone who hasn't been paying any attention, you hit the nail right on the head.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:01 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I tried to make a point about the relationship of the arahant to the khandhas.
Well, according to SN 22.36 there is no relationship.
Maybe, but arahant talk, remember things, have pertsonalities, so what does SN 22.36?
tiltbillings wrote:Outside of not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion do the living arahants see, hear, think, remember, talk, poop, walk somehow differently?
They still have eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mind-faculties. But there is no specific fabrication or volitional intention towards either existence or non-existence.
Of course; that is not in question, but arahants seem to do things that indicates some sort of intention going on.
Sure. But somewhere in the Aṅguttaranikāya there is a sutta which explains that with the remainderless passing away and cessation of ignorance there is no longer a fabricated body, voice, or mind conditioned by which pleasure or pain arise internally. My guess would be that this means that an arahant doesn't generate either kusala or akusala kamma.
The text would always be good to have.
At any rate, I haven't been paying attention to what it is that you guys are debating so I'll step aside.
My point is fairly simple: the arahant, while "emobodied" has to deal with the conditioned (in part by kamma) mind/body process, even though they are not identifying with it. It just goes with still being alive. That is it. That's the whole of what I am trying to say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:28 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: It will be several hours befor I can get back to this in any detail.
That's alright. I look forward to that demonstration at least one instance from the suttas where idappaccayata is used in any context other than dependent origination (or its reverse mode) founded upon ignorance.

For you to claim that idappaccayata was taught as a general principle, beyond that of dependent origination, you'll need to provide at least one example of it in the suttas that differs from dependent origination. Otherwise, you're merely kidding yourself that such an application of it is relevant to the Dhamma (given the criteria of the Simsapa Sutta).

There's many suttas on dependent origination - happy reading....

:reading:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:29 am

Not sure if this helps, but from Bhikkhu Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 18, (P562 in the PDF I have, also in Volume IV in the links from this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurund ... anda_Thera)
Here, then, we have an extremely subtle problem. When the
arahant comes back to the world and is seen experiencing the
objects of the five senses, one might of course conclude that he
is actually `in the world'. This problematic situation, namely the
question how the influx-free arahant, gone to the farther shore,
comes back and takes in objects through the senses, the Buddha
resolves with the help of a simple simile, drawn from nature.
For instance, we read in the Jarāsutta of the Sutta Nipāta the
following scintillating lines.

"Like a drop of water on a lotus leaf,
Or water that taints not the lotus petal,
So the sage unattached remains,
In regard to what is seen, heard and sensed."

So the extremely deep problem concerning the relation be-
tween the supramundane and the mundane levels of experience,
is resolved by the Buddha by bringing in the simile of the lotus
petal and the lotus leaf.
:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:50 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:My point is fairly simple: the arahant, while "emobodied" has to deal with the conditioned (in part by kamma) mind/body process, even though they are not identifying with it.
Taking "body" as an example, it's not just a case of not merely identifying with it, it's a case of not ignorantly reifying it and regarding it as existent in the first place.
Venerable Nanananda, Sermon 8 wrote:With the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance, the arahant has no notion of a body. That is, he does not have a percep­tion of a body, like that of a worldling, who takes it as such, due to his perception of the compact, ghanasa¤¤à.
Venerable Nanananda, Sermon 8 wrote:"Consciousness which makes nothing manifest, infinite and all lustrous. It does not partake of the earthiness of earth, the wateriness of water, the fieriness of fire, the airiness of air, the creature-hood of creatures, the deva-hood of devas, the Pajàpati-hood of Pajàpati, the Brahma-hood of Brahma, the radiance of the Radiant Ones, the Subha­kiõha-hood of the Subhakiõha Brahmas, the Vehapphala-hood of the Vehapphala Brahmas, the overlord-ship of the overlord, and the all-ness of the all."

The gist of this paragraph is that the non-manifestative con­scious­ness which is infinite and all lustrous, is free from the qualities asso­ciated with any of the concepts in the list, such as the earthiness of earth and the wateriness of water. That is to say it is not under their influence, it does not partake of them, an­anubhåtaü. Whatever na­ture the world attributes to these concepts, whatever reality they in­vest it with, that is not regis­tered in this non-manifestative con­scious­ness. That is why this consciousness is said to be uninfluenced by them.

Usually, the worldlings attribute a certain degree of reality to concepts in everyday usage. These may be reckoned as mind-ob­jects, things that the mind attends to. The word dhamma also means `a thing', so the worldling thinks that there is some-`thing' in each of these concepts. Or, in other words, they believe that there is some-thing as an inherent nature or essence in these ob­jects of the mind.

But the quotation in question seems to imply that this so-called nature is not registered in the arahant's mind. It is ex­tremely neces­sary for the worldling to think that there is some real nature in these mind-objects. Why? Because in order to think of them as objects they have to have some essence, at least they must be invested with an essence, and so the worldlings do invest them with some sort of an essence, and that is the earthi­ness of earth, the wateriness of wa­ter, (etc.). Likewise there is a being-hood in beings, a deva-hood in devas, a Pajàpati-hood in Pajàpati, a Brahma-hood in Brahma, so much so that even in the concept of all, there is an all-ness - and this is the worldlings' stand­point.

Attributing a reality to whatever concept that comes up, the world­lings create for themselves perceptions of permanence, per­cep­tions of the beautiful, and perceptions of self. In other words, they ob­jectify these concepts in terms of craving, conceit and views. That objectification takes the form of some inherent nature attributed to them, such as earthiness, deva-hood (etc.).

But as for the non-manifestative consciousness, it is free from the so-called natures that delude the worldlings. In the con­sciousness of the arahants, there is not that infatuation with re­gard to the mass of concepts which the worldlings imagine as real, in order to keep going this drama of existence.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by pegembara » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:01 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Not sure if this helps, but from Bhikkhu Nanananda's Nibbana Sermon 18, (P562 in the PDF I have, also in Volume IV in the links from this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurund ... anda_Thera)
Here, then, we have an extremely subtle problem. When the
arahant comes back to the world and is seen experiencing the
objects of the five senses, one might of course conclude that he
is actually `in the world'. This problematic situation, namely the
question how the influx-free arahant, gone to the farther shore,
comes back and takes in objects through the senses, the Buddha
resolves with the help of a simple simile, drawn from nature.
For instance, we read in the Jarāsutta of the Sutta Nipāta the
following scintillating lines.

"Like a drop of water on a lotus leaf,
Or water that taints not the lotus petal,
So the sage unattached remains,
In regard to what is seen, heard and sensed."

So the extremely deep problem concerning the relation be-
tween the supramundane and the mundane levels of experience,
is resolved by the Buddha by bringing in the simile of the lotus
petal and the lotus leaf.
:anjali:
Mike
The one cleared of all mental fermentation;
who is independent of all 4 nutriments;
whose abiding is the unconditioned & void release,
is untraceable, just like a bird in the air.

Teflon Mind
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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