Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ben
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Hi Alan,
Its getting off-topic.
Let's try and stay focused on Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?
Thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Dan74
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Dan74 »

alan wrote:What we see is a tradition that was pro-war for generations.
I am not sure. Do you want to back this up? I read some Dogen, Hakuin, Bankei, Muso Soseki and Kanzan and don't recall anything that condoned violence or war.

Of course you can always find priests who would suck up to the government and spout the propaganda, but it is a big leap to equate them with the tradition.

PS Ooops - I see Ben's post above. PM me if you are interested or start another thread, I guess. There is also plenty of reading, citations and opinions here http://www.zenforuminternational.org/vi ... =73&t=1298
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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poto
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by poto »

I disagree with Ben. While an arahant may have perfect sila, a sotapanna might not.

Sotapannas have not yet extinguished anger, hatred, aversion and many forms of craving. Ignorance may also arise in a sotapanna. An arahant OTOH has extinguished all of these things.

It seems to me the sutta Ben quoted regarding the fruits of stream entry could be taken to mean an ariya further along on the path. I do not think it is wise to assume that mere stream entry equates with automatically receiving the fruits of stream entry. I think it would still require one to be diligent and strive in earnest in order to bear the fruit of stream entry.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Poto,

I'm inclined to agree.

I think I can recall instances of ariya breaking minor Vinaya rules, but I've got no idea where to start looking in order to back that claim up. No wait, maybe I do... oh wait, forget it... Channa's suicide, that will do. Attempted suicide is a low-level Vinaya offense. If a bhikkhu breaks (or more importantly, can break) Vinaya, how can they be said to have perfect sila?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Better still..... from Nanavira's Letter #50. http://www.nanavira.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nanavira Thera wrote:I venture to think that if you actually read through the whole of the Vinaya and the Suttas you would be aghast at some of the things a real live sotāpanna is capable of. As a bhikkhu he is capable of suicide (but so also is an arahat—I have already quoted examples); he is capable of breaking all the lesser Vinaya rules (M. 48: i,323-5; A. III,85: i,231-2); he is capable of disrobing on account of sensual desires (e.g. the Ven. Citta Hatthisāriputta—A. VI,60: iii,392-9); he is capable (to some degree) of anger, ill-will, jealousy, stinginess, deceit, craftiness, shamelessness, and brazenness (A. II,16: i,96). As a layman he is capable (contrary to popular belief) of breaking any or all of the five precepts (though as soon as he has done so he recognizes his fault and repairs the breach, unlike the puthujjana who is content to leave the precepts broken).

There are some things in the Suttas that have so much shocked the Commentator that he has been obliged to provide patently false explanations (I am thinking in particular of the arahat's suicide in M. 144: iii,266 and in the Salāyatana Samy. 87: iv,55-60 and of a drunken sotāpanna in the Sotāpatti Samy. 24: v,375-7). What the sotāpanna is absolutely incapable of doing is the following (M. 115: iii,64-5):

To take any determination (sankhāra) as permanent,
To take any determination as pleasant,
To take any thing (dhamma) as self,
To kill his mother,
To kill his father,
To kill an arahat,
Maliciously to shed a Buddha's blood,
To split the Sangha,
To follow any teacher other than the Buddha.
All these things a puthujjana can do.

Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed. As Kierkegaard puts it,

Whatever is great in the sphere of the universally human must...not be communicated as a subject for admiration, but as an ethical requirement. (CUP, p. 320)
This means that you are not required to admire a sotāpanna, but to become one.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

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poto wrote:I do not think it is wise to assume that mere stream entry equates with automatically receiving the fruits of stream entry. I think it would still require one to be diligent and strive in earnest in order to bear the fruit of stream entry.
This, I don't understand. You seem to be contradicting yourself.
I suggest you read Bodhipakkiya-dhamma dipani by Ledi Sayadaw.

Further, if the words of an ignorant arahant isn't to your taste, then perhaps these quotes from the Buddha:

"Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." SN 55.2

"There are, O monks, these blessings in realizing the fruit of stream-entry: One is firm in the good Dhamma. One is unable to fall back." AN 6.97

"Consider the person who is accomplished in the precepts, and is moderately successful in concentration, moderately successful in wisdom – by destroying the three hindrances, he becomes one, who will be reborn seven times at most [stream entrant]" AN 9.12

The stream winner, with virtues dear to noble ones endowed, which are unbroken and without a rent, untarnished and without a blemish, purifying, praised by the wise, uncontaminated and conducive to concentration." AN 9.27
Channa's suicide, that will do. Attempted suicide is a low-level Vinaya offense.
My understanding is that when Channa attempted suicide, it was not an offence. Hence, he did not break sila.
Better still..... from Nanavira's Letter #50.
I'm sorry Retro but Nanavira is hardly an authority.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:I'm sorry Retro but Nanavira is hardly an authority.
He cites examples from suttas, where ariyans have less than perfect sila... how does it matter who is pointing out the sutta references?

I don't see how he is any less qualified to do that than a member of a discussion forum, simply because he is not to your taste. It sounds like dismissing the moon because you don't like the finger pointing at it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Here is one of the citations, from MN 48...
MN 48 wrote:Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong*, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view.
* - equated by Nanavira with the lesser rules of the Vinaya... either way, it's a 'wrong' that's been performed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:those come to righteousness of view.
Nanavira's explanation aside, I would like to see some explanation of the term above and what it actually refers to.
He cites examples from suttas, where ariyans have less than perfect sila...
Apparent less than perfect sila. Context is everything. Again, I would like to see alternative explanations other than Nanavira.
It sounds like dismissing the moon because you don't like the finger pointing at it.
Maybe.
But Nanavira on sila is like Michael Jackson on child welfare.
Dubious and unconvincing.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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daverupa
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by daverupa »

Ben wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:those come to righteousness of view.
Nanavira's explanation aside, I would like to see some explanation of the term above and what it actually refers to.
Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70): "Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower...

"...And what is the individual attained to view? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and he has reviewed & examined with discernment the qualities (or: teachings) proclaimed by the Tathagata. This is called an individual who is attained to view."

Underlined portions are equivalent; I cross-referenced MN 48 and MN 70 on this site to verify that the phrase 'righteousness of view' occurs in both Suttas, and then checked MN 70 on ATI to verify the alternate translation.
Ben wrote:But Nanavira on sila is like Michael Jackson on child welfare.
Dubious and unconvincing.
I find ad hominem dubious and unconvincing, as a general rule.
Ben wrote:Apparent less than perfect sila. Context is everything. Again, I would like to see alternative explanations other than Nanavira.
We might ponder the Sarakaani Sutta on that note.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Hi Daverupa,
daverupa wrote:
Ben wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:those come to righteousness of view.
Nanavira's explanation aside, I would like to see some explanation of the term above and what it actually refers to.
Kitagiri Sutta (MN 70): "Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower...

"...And what is the individual attained to view? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and he has reviewed & examined with discernment the qualities (or: teachings) proclaimed by the Tathagata. This is called an individual who is attained to view."

Underlined portions are equivalent; I cross-referenced MN 48 and MN 70 on this site to verify that the phrase 'righteousness of view' occurs in both Suttas, and then checked MN 70 on ATI to verify the alternate translation.
While the term is identical in the two different suttas, is it an identical meaning? My understanding of pali translation is that context seems to be everything. Thank you for your efforts, they are appreciated.
daverupa wrote:
Ben wrote:But Nanavira on sila is like Michael Jackson on child welfare.
Dubious and unconvincing.
I find ad hominem dubious and unconvincing, as a general rule.
Certainly, I was out of line by being so harsh. The fact remains that 1. Nanavira claimed ariyan attainment and 2. He committed suicide. As a consequence, I and perhaps many other people, feel that he is less than authoritative.
Ben wrote:Apparent less than perfect sila. Context is everything. Again, I would like to see alternative explanations other than Nanavira.
daverupa wrote:We might ponder the Sarakaani Sutta on that note.
Indeed, an interesting case.
Shortly after the death of a lay person named Sarakani, the Buddha identified him as a stream-entrant. Then some monks complained that Sarakani could not have been a stream-entrant as this lay person indulged in alcohol. But the Buddha remarked that, "Sarakani the Sakyan undertook the training at the time of his death." Samyutta Nikaya 55.24 The lay person Sarakani practiced the moral precepts in full before his death, thus, confirming that one cannot be a stream-entrant or higher if one violates the moral precepts. In the more positive way, one who follows the precepts and practices diligently, stream-entry or higher can be attained.
-- http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Sotapanna" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Greetings,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Here is one of the citations, from MN 48...
MN 48 wrote:Again, bhikkhus, the noble disciple reflects. I share this view with those come to righteousness of view. I’m also endowed with that unique characteristic. Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong*, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it. In the same manner when he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes amends for future restrain. This is a unique character of one come to righteousness of view.
* - equated by Nanavira with the lesser rules of the Vinaya... either way, it's a 'wrong' that's been performed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Let's compare that against Bhikkhu Bodhi's note to the corresponding paragraph:
496 This is a breach of the code of monastic discipline from which a bhikkhu can be rehabilitated either by a formal act of the Sangha or by confession to another bhikkhu. Even though a noble disciple may commit such an offence unintentionally or through lack of knowledge, he makes no attempt to conceal it but immediately discloses it and seeks the means of rehabilitation.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

I'd question the basis upon Bhikkhu Bodhi would say "even though a noble disciple may commit such an offence unintentionally or through lack of knowledge" in light of Channa's suicide and given that Vin.iii.71 declares that attempting suicide is a paaraajika offence. He even declare his intention in the presence of ven. Sariputta... surely it was not an offence committed "unintentionally or through lack of knowledge".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by Ben »

Retro, I am less familiar with the Vinaya than I am with the Suttas. While I am no translator, I can appreciate there are linguistic and situational complexities and subtleties that difficult to fathom without an encycloapedic knowledge of Pali and the canonical and commentarial literature. Perhaps it is a question for Bhikkhu Bodhi to answer.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: Being kind of violent and still reach stream-enter?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

In the meantime there is this, if you've not seen it...

Buddhism and Suicide --- The Case of Channa by Damien Keown
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/suicide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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